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  1. #161
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post


    This is true. Wearing a veil is not ordained by the Quran - it's a cultural, rather than a religious practice. Therefore, when in Rome...

    Or France?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  2. #162
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    If that's how she actually feels, maybe it says something important about cultural differences.
    Sure. It says they exist.

    Who knew?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #163
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Sure. It says they exist.

    Who knew?
    So then why would you not want to acknowledge that and instead try to "fix" the problem of another culture when it's highly possible you don't have the same understanding of such an issue? i think not doing so causes tension and isn't efficient.
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  4. #164
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    okay, I see what you mean, the way I described it isn't very good. Her husband doesn't have any say in what she wears, she does what she wants. I guess you'd have to meet her to get a better idea of her personality, she's just as fiercely independent as anyone could be. I don't know how better to describe it.


    If she is so fiercely independant all power to her. You painted a very different picture to begin with though, you seem to have re-addressed every point i have picked you up on.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #165
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    So then why would you not want to acknowledge that and instead try to "fix" the problem of another culture when it's highly possible you don't have the same understanding of such an issue? i think not doing so causes tension and isn't efficient.
    I hate to call you out on "is-ought", but I will.

    Honor killings are another cultural nicety that I won't be welcoming any time soon.
    Cultural values become enshrined in national laws. That law in the West includes measures to protect women from abuse and I'm glad of that. I think a woman being brainwashed into believing that covering her face/head is somehow necessary for a modest/decent life, thereby alienating her from the people she lives amongst with their "dangerous" Western ideology is a form of abuse. She might as well walk around with a ball and chain.
    No, I don't think we should respect barbaric practices just because they come from an alien culture in the almighty name of Tolerance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #166
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I hate to call you out on "is-ought", but I will.

    Honor killings are another cultural nicety that I won't be welcoming any time soon.
    Cultural values become enshrined in national laws. That law in the West includes measures to protect women from abuse and I'm glad of that. I think a woman being brainwashed into believing that covering her face/head is somehow necessary for a modest/decent life, thereby alienating her from the people she lives amongst with their "dangerous" Western ideology is a form of abuse. She might as well walk around with a ball and chain.
    No, I don't think we should respect barbaric practices just because they come from an alien culture in the almighty name of Tolerance.
    + 1
    (wanted to say plus a fucking billion but thought it rather dramatic)
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #167
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I hate to call you out on "is-ought", but I will.

    Honor killings are another cultural nicety that I won't be welcoming any time soon.
    Cultural values become enshrined in national laws. That law in the West includes measures to protect women from abuse and I'm glad of that. I think a woman being brainwashed into believing that covering her face/head is somehow necessary for a modest/decent life, thereby alienating her from the people she lives amongst with their "dangerous" Western ideology is a form of abuse. She might as well walk around with a ball and chain.
    No, I don't think we should respect barbaric practices just because they come from an alien culture in the almighty name of Tolerance.
    And thus you believe the western culture is truly the best culture. They themselves would think you were brainwashed from your society to believe such things. Works both ways.

    I also wouldn't think it was only a matter of modesty to wear the veil. It's more of a way to repel the general sexual attraction from the men publicly.

  8. #168
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    And thus you believe the western culture is truly the best culture. They themselves would think you were brainwashed from your society to believe such things. Works both ways.

    I also wouldn't think it was only a matter of modesty to wear the veil. It's more of a way to repel the general sexual attraction from the men publicly.
    This.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  9. #169
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I hate to call you out on "is-ought", but I will.
    By all means

    I think a woman being brainwashed into believing that covering her face/head is somehow necessary for a modest/decent life, thereby alienating her from the people she lives amongst with their "dangerous" Western ideology is a form of abuse. She might as well walk around with a ball and chain.
    look that's fine and i'm not disagreeing with this because this is how i was raised to perceive it as well, but do you see how easily this statement could be changed based on perception? because this looks more like the argument i've seen put forward:

    I think a woman being brainwashed into believing that covering her face/head fitting standard beauty norms is somehow necessary for a modest/decent happier/better life, thereby alienating her from the people she lives amongst with their "dangerous" Middle-Eastern ideology is a form of abuse. She might as well walk around with a ball and chain
    maybe they think we're the brainwashed ones? Who's right? Anyone? from their perspective they see not having to be looked at like a sexual object as being more liberating than what they perceive to be women whoring out their bodies for money. i don't think this is true either but do you see what it's like to condemn something when you don't have a good grasp of the cultural background? is it really that much of a stretch for people who view Western culture this way to actually feel more comfortable covering up?

    i don't see why it's so outrageous to think that the fact such wildly varying perceptions might mean that one is not necessarily superior to the other beyond from our own cultural perspective? if we're to assume that the brainwashing you're talking about applies, why not on our end as well?

    Honor killings are another cultural nicety that I won't be welcoming any time soon. Cultural values become enshrined in national laws. That law in the West includes measures to protect women from abuse and I'm glad of that.
    Of course, but from our perspective, and does that necessarily apply to people who grew up elsewhere? Why is ours so much better that we need to liberate them from their brainwashing?


    No, I don't think we should respect barbaric practices just because they come from an alien culture in the almighty name of Tolerance.
    I don't think respect always requires accepting it with wide open arms, if that's what you're saying. I think in this case it means more like "leaving well alone" instead of trying to force quick assimilation on people who come from a different culture. I see the possibility of a lot of women no longer feeling comfortable enough to leave the house because they feel too exposed to be comfortable. How liberating. Let the women who are affected fight their battle, they know better how to change things from their cultural perspective.

    and if it means anything I'll have you know the woman who brought this point up to me was giving a talk about her experiences after being arrested and detained working on her thesis on the women's rights movement in Iran. a subject about which she is familiar.

    CSUN to Honor Iranian-American Graduate Student Esha Momeni with its First Academic Freedom Award

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  10. #170
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I hate to call you out on "is-ought", but I will.

    Honor killings are another cultural nicety that I won't be welcoming any time soon.
    Just because they're practiced by certain people who also happen to be Muslims, some of whom may adhere to extreme forms of veiling, doesn't make this issue directly linked to the wearing of the Burqa. They may be an overlap, but they also form two distinct subsets. I hope you're not pulling an association fallacy out of the hat here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Cultural values become enshrined in national laws. That law in the West includes measures to protect women from abuse and I'm glad of that.
    I'd agree with what you seem to be saying, that so much as there is a genuine issue here it may be one of domestic violence and its prevalence, perhaps due to cultural toleration, in certain Muslim communities. However, since as you say these laws already exist and help to protect women in the West:

    1) How does continuing to allow Muslim women to dress in a certain manner undermine the effectiveness of existing laws?
    2) How does preventing Muslim women from dressing in a certain manner strengthen existing laws, particularly with regard to their application in the Muslim community?
    3) If existing laws are indeed less effective in the Muslim community at present, why is this?
    4) Domestic violence is already, and despite existing laws, an issue for plenty of Western women, especially (though not exlusively by any means) in deprived communities. A disproportionate number of Muslims also live in deprived communities. Is there any reason to suppose that effective measures taken to counter domestic violence in general, particularly targetting deprived communities, would not have as beneficial an effect on victimised Muslim women as on victimised non-Muslim women?


    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I think a woman being brainwashed into believing that covering her face/head is somehow necessary for a modest/decent life, thereby alienating her from the people she lives amongst with their "dangerous" Western ideology is a form of abuse. She might as well walk around with a ball and chain.
    No, I don't think we should respect barbaric practices just because they come from an alien culture in the almighty name of Tolerance.
    When does the posession by someone else of a belief you choose not to subscribe to personally become "brainwashing"? Can you establish any kind of objective criteria for determining when this has taken place?

    How is this brainwashing to be distinguished from the freely acquired and chosen set of beliefs you would presumably prefer?

    If someone fails to meet whatever criteria you have established for being a victim of "brainwashing", yet still holds these beliefs (if you will allow that it may be possible to do of one's own free will), is she still an abuse victim, barbaric, what? Or do you simply not allow for the possibility?

    Edit: Anyone else who shares Morgan's views in any respects on these issues are welcome to tackle any of the questions if they like, because I would be interested to see what approaches people have to resolving them.
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