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  1. #151
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    The fact that her husband requires her to wear it at all would render this argument void, sorry. Why would somenone feel they are being undressed by guys eyes if they don't wear the full veil...have they had it drummed into them prehaps.
    Reread what I said. I said he DOESN'T require it. Now granted, they live in New York and not Saudi Arabia, but I don't think he'd be the kind of person to require something like that. I dunno for sure though.


    I agree with the bolded to a certain point. I believe the burqa symbolises the opression of women and to this end can not be compared with many other articles of clothing.
    The underlined i agree with partially but not entirely because i think it dosn't miss the point but a lot more does need to be done. I don't personally agree with the way France are going about things but i do hope the move will spur other kinds of action, namely from groups/spokespeople of feminist women living in opressive conditions. It certainly has a lot of debates going already.
    There are also a lot of French people who are not racist, i'm presuming the generalisation was aimed at the government.
    Yeah, I shouldn't have generalized. I've met only a couple of French people and they came off as extremely racist (even a black girl, go figure.) I had another friend who cancelled his study abroad there after a month or so because of the attitudes there (that may have been anti-american sentiment, I don't know for sure.) Of course these are anecdotal and don't represent the country as a whole so I shouldn't have said that.

    My point was that using an oppressive law to target a visible symbol of a religion perceived as oppressive (whether or not it is is beside the point) is not going to do anything except harden said oppressive elements.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  2. #152
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    I hope they force them into bikinis next.

    Of course, this should be decided on case-by-case basis.
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  3. #153
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    Reread what I said. I said he DOESN'T require it. Now granted, they live in New York and not Saudi Arabia, but I don't think he'd be the kind of person to require something like that. I dunno for sure though.
    No sorry, i have to pull you up on this, what you said is (bolded)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    I have a friend who wears it willingly. She likes it because when she's talking to guys they aren't undressing her with their eyes so to speak and she says it frees her to talk more candidly and not be as defensive. Her husband doesn't require her to wear it constantly either but she likes the change it the way people address her as well as it being part of her faith. /anecdotal story
    This implies that he does require her to wear it at times. If you meant it differently please say so but i hardly imagine if she married a man who didn't want her to wear it at all that she would feel the need/want to wear it.


    EDIT
    Of course i don't know for sure either, but the way you describe her attitude towards it would lend itself to the typical oppressive styles of thinking imposed. I.E Man says to woman, you are wearing this to protect yourself from men who will rape you if you show off your body.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  4. #154
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't know about other girls, but I think, during the summer, I feel forced to wear a bikini, because it's the only reasonably priced swimsuit that's fashionable. So either I spend a sh*t-ton of money on an expensive, vintage-style one-piece, or I wear an ugly old lady swimsuit, or I wear a bikini. And I always end up wearing a bikini, despite the fact that I hate the fact that I feel forced to show all that skin when I'd rather not. This obviously isn't the same as being threatened with death/lashing - but it's still being threatened with humiliation, and it's an example of how Western culture also forces women to follow certain clothing trends.
    I dont know where the post you were responding to went, but it was a fair reply so let me clarify my point. the above is most certainly true, but the other point i was mostly trying to get at is that in order to get people to buy things in this culture, women's bodies and sexuality are often used to sell things like....burgers. Cars. Anything. It's exploitation because it uses a particular idea of female sexuality to make a greater profit for someone else. living in Los Angeles and knowing/living with a model many of them do very similar ads for a good amount of money, but significantly less than the people for whom the ad is made. or even for free if they are trying to build their portfolio. regardless they are still being rewarded for buying into this kind of system and making some other people a whole buttload of money.

    This is reinforced by being plastered through images everywhere and it leads to situations like the above, and much worse, for those who don't or do not wish to to identify with the images that have been promoted. This is why you have little girls (and boys, too) looking at magazines and advertisements and having self-image problems, who grow up into adults with self-image problems.

    It's something i think you have to look at in a big picture kind of way because of course when "this is the way thing are" then sure you're going to have people who can and even want to participate because in a culture such as this they are rewarded handsomely. It's a hard line to draw sometimes, value-wise; on a big picture level there is a lot going on that might not be good for a large portion of a people but at the same time they technically have an individual choice to participate. and many do. Much like the burqa. Again it's all about perspective, we see this as normal and acceptable but i can tell you i've met enough women from various Middle-Eastern countries who give such images as the reason they actually feel more comfortable about wearing the hajib, I see no reason why it wouldn't translate to some degree to the burqa as well.
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  5. #155
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    No sorry, i have to pull you up on this, what you said is (bolded)



    This implies that he does require her to wear it at times. If you meant it differently please say so but i hardly imagine if she married a man who didn't want her to wear it at all that she would feel the need/want to wear it.


    EDIT
    Of course i don't know for sure either, but the way you describe her attitude towards it would lend itself to the typical oppressive styles of thinking imposed. I.E Man says to woman, you are wearing this to protect yourself from men who will rape you if you show off your body.
    okay, I see what you mean, the way I described it isn't very good. Her husband doesn't have any say in what she wears, she does what she wants. I guess you'd have to meet her to get a better idea of her personality, she's just as fiercely independent as anyone could be. I don't know how better to describe it.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  6. #156
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't know about other girls, but I think, during the summer, I feel forced to wear a bikini, because it's the only reasonably priced swimsuit that's fashionable. So either I spend a sh*t-ton of money on an expensive, vintage-style one-piece, or I wear an ugly old lady swimsuit, or I wear a bikini. And I always end up wearing a bikini, despite the fact that I hate the fact that I feel forced to show all that skin when I'd rather not. This obviously isn't the same as being threatened with death/lashing - but it's still being threatened with humiliation, and it's an example of how Western culture also forces women to follow certain clothing trends.
    Western culture does not force anyone to wear a bikini. If you feel forced to wear a bikini, that's on you and no one else.

    Also, you're assuming that no women choose to wear the burqa. Believe it or not, some do. Should we ban the burqa because some, but not all, of the women who wear them are forced to?
    I'm not so dense as to think every woman feels forced to wear a hijab, which is why I never wrote anything like that in my post.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  7. #157
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Western culture does not force anyone to wear a bikini. If you feel forced to wear a bikini, that's on you and no one else.
    I'm not sure i agree, the way i see it is that through pretty invasive marketing, it's really easy to make people feel uncomfortable when they are not conforming in whatever way. If that kind of feeling is being purposely elicited in marketing because it increases sales, and i think it can be sometimes, then maybe it's not forcing per se, but it's something. There is very much societal pressure in that sense; why else is the self-esteem of teenagers in this country such a problem?

    going back to burqas, my point is that complex cultural forces can sometimes "force" women to wear the burqa and i was trying to make analogy with what i think is a similar force in Western culture. it's not the burqa that's the problem anymore than it is the bikini, they're symbols of a more deeprooted cultural issue and i don't see banning such symbols as solving a problem, especially when we are approaching it from our cultural standpoint that might not necessarily apply to theirs
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  8. #158
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    I'm not sure i agree, the way i see it is that through pretty invasive marketing, it's really easy to make people feel uncomfortable when they are not conforming in whatever way. If that kind of feeling is being purposely elicited in marketing because it increases sales, and i think it can be sometimes, then maybe it's not forcing per se, but it's something.
    There's a difference between implied mental force and actual physical force. They are allowing outside influences to determine what they will wear and what they will not wear.

    There is very much societal pressure in that sense; why else is the self-esteem of teenagers in this country such a problem?
    There is pressure coming from all angles and to all angles of society, but that is another post. Self-esteem is exactly what it reads, self-esteem.

    going back to burqas, my point is that complex cultural forces can sometimes "force" women to wear the burqa and i was trying to make analogy with what i think is a similar force in Western culture. it's not the burqa that's the problem anymore than it is the bikini, they're symbols of a more deeprooted cultural issue and i don't see banning such symbols as solving a problem, especially when we are approaching it from our cultural standpoint that might not necessarily apply to theirs
    Thanks for answering my question. I've been using burqa and hijab interchangeably, so excuse that. What I want to know from you is if France has to respect other cultures and if so, why?
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    But a good friend from Iran asked me this question and I think it's a really good one to think about.

    Who is really being exploited? Who is really liberated? Her?



    or her?

    And you bought it?
    Oh dear.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't know about other girls, but I think, during the summer, I feel forced to wear a bikini, because it's the only reasonably priced swimsuit that's fashionable. So either I spend a sh*t-ton of money on an expensive, vintage-style one-piece, or I wear an ugly old lady swimsuit, or I wear a bikini. And I always end up wearing a bikini, despite the fact that I hate the fact that I feel forced to show all that skin when I'd rather not. This obviously isn't the same as being threatened with death/lashing - but it's still being threatened with humiliation, and it's an example of how Western culture also forces women to follow certain clothing trends.
    I am really embarrassed for you.
    Comparing your little fashion dilemma to a regime that systematically dehumanizes women? I can't even....words fail me.

    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    We believe wearing the veil is a cultural issue, not a religious one. The fundamentalists want to paint this issue in religious hues and by forcing women to wear the veil, unleash their misogynism through terror and oppression. Their ultimate objective is to keep women under their absolute power, in the status of chattel."
    This is true. Wearing a veil is not ordained by the Quran - it's a cultural, rather than a religious practice. Therefore, when in Rome...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  10. #160
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    There's a difference between implied mental force and actual physical force. They are allowing outside influences to determine what they will wear and what they will not wear.


    There is pressure coming from all angles and to all angles of society, but that is another post. Self-esteem is exactly what it reads, self-esteem.
    Another thread or PM might be good for this; i see your points and i'm down to continue this convo. but i was really just trying to make analogy with this, i don't want to derail the thread


    Thanks for answering my question. I've been using burqa and hijab interchangeably, so excuse that. What I want to know from you is if France has to respect other cultures and if so, why?
    well i'm not sure how to answer this..France doesn't HAVE to do anything, the same cultural understanding perspectives apply on similar levels in my speculations. Ideally yes i'd love if every culture respected and had a deeper understanding of all other cultures but I know that's not really realistic. I think it would benefit them more if they had a deeper cultural understanding of the issue because it looks like they're trying to put a band-aid on a gaping wound to me; i just don't see such a ban solving anything or changing much except whoever was wearing burqas before now can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    And you bought it?
    Oh dear.
    and why not? certainly its an opinion from HER cultural experience, and since it, you know, concerns issues that stem from her cultural traditions then maybe it's something valid to think about. If that's how she actually feels, maybe it says something important about cultural differences.
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