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  1. #141
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    and i'm sorry but while it might not be against the rules i think it's really disingenuous for you to come into a thread in a forum that is basically set aside for debate/discussion, give your opinions and ideas, but then take your ball and go home when someone calls you out on it.

    ragashree might be a little harsh but that's debate for you, and while it might be harsher than you'd prefer it's most certainly not aggressive and i really don't see how it's insulting except for the fact that he's calling you out on something. Personally i'd love to see your point of view, but we can't do that if you're not willing to stand by and discuss the points of view you so willingly laid out for all of us to read in the first place.
    There was no clear indication to me that the thread was intended for debate. I don't like debating. I would not have written in it if I realized it was going to mean I would be continually challenged to debate and would have to submit to some strangers critique whether or not I had presented a logical argument. There is literally nothing as tedious on earth as that for me.

    I expressed my feelings on the matter, such as they are, without any intent to argue. Then I got called names, disingenuous being one. "Disingenuous" means insincere, intentionally misleading, deceptive.
    I am not/was not insincere, intentionally misleading, or deceptive. I said what I wanted to say and I explained it as well as I could and more than I cared to.

    I had violently ugly words put in my mouth, i.e., "sandniggers" and was treated as if I have no respect for other cultures. I got thinly veiled accusations of Naziism.

    There was no intent to exchange ideas with mutual respect and courtesy, or listen to someone else's expression of feelings without accusing them of that greatest of sins, not being LOGICAL. Do you people read MBTI at all? I'm an INFJ. I would rather eat dirt that talk with people who evaluate every statement in terms of whether or not it presents a logical argument, and who ask me to explain and then don't listen to the explanation, or automatically jump to conclusions about every word I say and proceed from there, treating me like dirt in the process.

    I was hoping to come back and read what you had to say to each other without getting into it, because you seem incapable of talking with me about my point of view without flagrantly talking down, insulting the way I put things, suspecting my motives, basically treating me like I've committed some heinous thought crime, and then instead of offering an apology for the repeated false accusations, take it a step further and have the brass balls to say you don't see where I was insulted and there was no call for me to take my ball and go home (another insult - implies I'm being childish and petulant) when I was "called out" about it. Sorry I didn't come out of my corner with my fists up when the whistle was called, but I keep trying to tell you, it's not my thing. I don't care to. I come here to enjoy my interactions with other people, not to debate and be called names and be backed into a corner with false accusations and to take on your projections. I chose not to participate in that. I hope we are clear now.

  2. #142
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    Not specifically on this issue but quasi related, anyone who is prepared to have any preconceptions on women in the Middle East challenged, visit The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) .

    I have been following this group of brave women and their issues since well before 9/11. In the light of what they experience at home in Afghanistan, the thought that a Western Society in which some may have been given refuge should impose such a law seems a sad indictment of what we consider important.
    Great site InsatiableCuriosity, i copied pasted below their views on the veil

    "The Islamic hejab (veil)

    We believe that aside from their inhuman misogynistic ideas, Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan have no plans for socioeconomic reconstruction. Nor do they have a decent concept for the country. Therefore, since their seizure of power, the fundamentalists have had to employ a fig leaf of irrelevant and artificial issues such as the "Islamic veil," put forward as vital priorities. Like every other oppressive means by which they wish to achieve their aims, the fundamentalists want to use the Koran as a bogey, even though wearing the veil has not been explicitly commanded in the Koran.

    We will never allow the fundamentalists to define and decree what women should or should not wear. They have no right to impose the veil upon us. As far as we are concerned, we will NOT wear the veil as far as security and social discretion allow us, for we regard rejection of the veil as a symbolic form of resistance and defiance of the fundamentalists. To wear, or not to wear, the Islamic veil is a completely personal issue and no one has the right to interfere with this decision or impose the veil upon us.

    We believe wearing the veil is a cultural issue, not a religious one. The fundamentalists want to paint this issue in religious hues and by forcing women to wear the veil, unleash their misogynism through terror and oppression. Their ultimate objective is to keep women under their absolute power, in the status of chattel."
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  3. #143
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    i think this is really fucked up, people should be allowed to use what ever kind of clothes they want to
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  4. #144
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    I'd also like to add to this discussion that i know a great many women who wear the Hijab (head scarf) and are very happy with it, some of these women wear it because of cultural influence and are not even Muslim but come from Islamic countries. What i have a problem with is the Burqa, the full covering (including face) since i really have not met or heard of anyone who truely wanted to wear it apart from women who felt hidden by it and comfortable to be hidden because they felt ashamed. As my Fiancee is Iranian i also have an insight to Islamic culture in Iran, i have read many articles and seen much footage as well as speaking to and meeting his large and extended family some of whom are religious and some whom are not. Incidentally it was the Persians who wrote the first bill of equal rights.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #145
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post


    This is nothing but racism, pure and simple, not to mention a blatant violation of several rights. Western Europe hates Muslims and they are doing their best to slowly chip away at their rights until the religion is all but outlawed. So much of this movement for Muslim women's rights is merely a veiled attack (pun unintended) on Islam itself. The hijab and burqa do not straight-forwardly equate with oppression of women. The issue is so much more complex than that but everyone is keen to jump to conclusions. And if the French government really gave a shit about women's rights there are a handful of issues they could have addressed first.

    BTW I am very much a femininist and I strongly oppose forcing women through law or social pressure to wear the burqa or the hijab. But I am also very much against forcing women not to wear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Is it right to force people to embrace freedom?
    Exactly.

    The French seem to miss the irony of acheiving 'freedom' through the violation of human rights.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #146
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    i really have not met or heard of anyone who truely wanted to wear it apart from women who felt hidden by it and comfortable to be hidden because they felt ashamed.
    I have a friend who wears it willingly. She likes it because when she's talking to guys they aren't undressing her with their eyes so to speak and she says it frees her to talk more candidly and not be as defensive. Her husband doesn't require her to wear it constantly either but she likes the change it the way people address her as well as it being part of her faith. /anecdotal story

    The point is banning an article clothing is just as oppressive as forcing everyone to wear it and completely misses the point of standing up against a fundamentalist part of a religion. Then again I'm not surprised by France since they are (from my experience) a bunch of racist twats.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  7. #147
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm no big fan of patriarchal customs that imply women are chattel. But banning the burqa is kind of like trying to stop indecent exposure by issuing eyepatches.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #148
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    There was no clear indication to me that the thread was intended for debate. I don't like debating. I would not have written in it if I realized it was going to mean I would be continually challenged to debate and would have to submit to some strangers critique whether or not I had presented a logical argument. There is literally nothing as tedious on earth as that for me.

    I expressed my feelings on the matter, such as they are, without any intent to argue. Then I got called names, disingenuous being one. "Disingenuous" means insincere, intentionally misleading, deceptive.
    I am not/was not insincere, intentionally misleading, or deceptive. I said what I wanted to say and I explained it as well as I could and more than I cared to.

    I had violently ugly words put in my mouth, i.e., "sandniggers" and was treated as if I have no respect for other cultures. I got thinly veiled accusations of Naziism.

    There was no intent to exchange ideas with mutual respect and courtesy, or listen to someone else's expression of feelings without accusing them of that greatest of sins, not being LOGICAL. Do you people read MBTI at all? I'm an INFJ. I would rather eat dirt that talk with people who evaluate every statement in terms of whether or not it presents a logical argument, and who ask me to explain and then don't listen to the explanation, or automatically jump to conclusions about every word I say and proceed from there, treating me like dirt in the process.

    I was hoping to come back and read what you had to say to each other without getting into it, because you seem incapable of talking with me about my point of view without flagrantly talking down, insulting the way I put things, suspecting my motives, basically treating me like I've committed some heinous thought crime, and then instead of offering an apology for the repeated false accusations, take it a step further and have the brass balls to say you don't see where I was insulted and there was no call for me to take my ball and go home (another insult - implies I'm being childish and petulant) when I was "called out" about it. Sorry I didn't come out of my corner with my fists up when the whistle was called, but I keep trying to tell you, it's not my thing. I don't care to. I come here to enjoy my interactions with other people, not to debate and be called names and be backed into a corner with false accusations and to take on your projections. I chose not to participate in that. I hope we are clear now.
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I"][/YOUTUBE]
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #149
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I don't know where you get the idea that I agreed to debate with you, or that I have any obligation to present what you call a rational argument. I can express myself however I choose, within the TOU. I fail to respond to you in any meaningful way because you're aggressive, accusatory, and deliberately insulting.
    I might as well say that I'm going to refuse to respond to you because you're being tiresomely defensive, playing the victim when challenged over your beliefs, and throwing out some rather mean-spirited little implications of the straw man variety about what those who believe differently to yourself must think - ie the comment about people posting here to mourn the burqua. Nevertheless, I have taken the trouble to analyse and respond to what you were actually saying, rather than just complaining that I don't like it or that you're being horrible for saying it; and am responding to you again here - LOOK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    There was no clear indication to me that the thread was intended for debate. I don't like debating. I would not have written in it if I realized it was going to mean I would be continually challenged to debate and would have to submit to some strangers critique whether or not I had presented a logical argument. There is literally nothing as tedious on earth as that for me.

    I see this. I find people who presume to have the right to determine the correct thoughts and actions of others, without even being willing to examine the basis of their own when challenged, equally tedious, I assure you. Viz:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Axiom: You can't make all the people happy all the time.

    Women who want to wear the burqa will feel oppressed. Women who are offended at seeing other women wear the burqa will feel oppressed if it continues to be worn. There is no happy medium. Someone will have to change his/her viewpoint. As it is, the women who don't feel comfortable unless they're covered are going to have to figure out a solution. If it had gone differently, which it very well may have, the women who are offended by burqas would have to change their viewpoints. Whose view is better? It's pointless to debate. You could argue either one until the cows come home and make no progress on either side.
    *Note, insisting that further debate is worthless because YOUR mind is already made up does not make the debate worthless, it simply makes you appear closed-minded and intolerant for making the assertion.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think people should assimilate into their host culture.

    There, I've said it. I'm Borg.
    I expressed my feelings on the matter, such as they are, without any intent to argue. Then I got called names, disingenuous being one. "Disingenuous" means insincere, intentionally misleading, deceptive.
    I am not/was not insincere, intentionally misleading, or deceptive. I said what I wanted to say and I explained it as well as I could and more than I cared to.
    Please. :rolli: You've already admitted deliberately not responding properly to what I'd posted, and that you were doing so to avoid engaging in actual debate. Do I have to rehash the whole thing at this point? I can assure you I find THAT tedious.

    I had violently ugly words put in my mouth, i.e., "sandniggers" and was treated as if I have no respect for other cultures. I got thinly veiled accusations of Naziism.
    The "sandniggers" comment struck me as a rather extreme way to make the ironic point, I'll have to leave the person who made it to comment on whether they feel it was justified. However, you seem more willing to react to words than look at the implications of ideas. I was responding ironically to Morgan's point about "Godwining" the thread. This is a reference to "Godwin's law" of Nazi analogies, that states that in time online debates will devolve to a position where an opposing poster's view is compared to Nazism.

    I, and I believe she, were taking the reference from your seemingly uncritical admiration for and justification of a form of ethno-culturally exclusive European nationalism which was being expressed by oppressive treatment of a religious and cultural minority. The parallels are not absolute, so I am not going to take that any further and would not have done so but for her comment, which mirrored my own feelings at that point - but does it not strike you as significant that at least two people posting on the thread were struck by the same thought, provoked by the same comments?

    There was no intent to exchange ideas with mutual respect and courtesy, or listen to someone else's expression of feelings without accusing them of that greatest of sins, not being LOGICAL. Do you people read MBTI at all? I'm an INFJ. I would rather eat dirt that talk with people who evaluate every statement in terms of whether or not it presents a logical argument, and who ask me to explain and then don't listen to the explanation, or automatically jump to conclusions about every word I say and proceed from there, treating me like dirt in the process.
    How about not changing the subject constantly and going on the defensive, playing the victim card as you are now, when pulled up for it then? It may have escaped your notice, but many of the people who have criticised you on this thread also appear to be F-types. It doesn't preclude the capacity to discuss matters in a calm and rational way, if one so chooses. Perhaps if we're going to drag type into it, it could be seen in terms of developing one's naturally less developed functions through a medium that engages their use, with the ultimate aim of becoming a better rounded individual. But you'd in your own words rather eat dirt, and blame everyone else for that self-chosen preference, if it starts not to taste so nice. That's your choice, therefore your problem, not anyone else's.

    I was hoping to come back and read what you had to say to each other without getting into it, because you seem incapable of talking with me about my point of view without flagrantly talking down, insulting the way I put things, suspecting my motives, basically treating me like I've committed some heinous thought crime, and then instead of offering an apology for the repeated false accusations, take it a step further and have the brass balls to say you don't see where I was insulted and there was no call for me to take my ball and go home (another insult - implies I'm being childish and petulant) when I was "called out" about it. Sorry I didn't come out of my corner with my fists up when the whistle was called, but I keep trying to tell you, it's not my thing. I don't care to. I come here to enjoy my interactions with other people, not to debate and be called names and be backed into a corner with false accusations and to take on your projections. I chose not to participate in that. I hope we are clear now.
    You're the one who by your own admission has made the choice to refuse to engage in a debate after expressing some opinions which others have found extreme in a rather forceful way. Please try to stop playing the victim and insisting that there is a need for others to apologise to you because of you making that choice. You essentially appear to want to express your views on forced assimilation (which a number of people appear to find objectionable and antitolerant, including myself) without facing any kind of criticism or having to justify them in a reasoned way. For all your complaining about how others are treating you badly I find that cowardly.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  10. #150
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    I have a friend who wears it willingly. She likes it because when she's talking to guys they aren't undressing her with their eyes so to speak and she says it frees her to talk more candidly and not be as defensive. Her husband doesn't require her to wear it constantly either but she likes the change it the way people address her as well as it being part of her faith. /anecdotal story
    The fact that her husband requires her to wear it at all would render this argument void, sorry. Why would somenone feel they are being undressed by guys eyes if they don't wear the full veil...have they had it drummed into them prehaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    The point is banning an article clothing is just as oppressive as forcing everyone to wear it and completely misses the point of standing up against a fundamentalist part of a religion. Then again I'm not surprised by France since they are (from my experience) a bunch of racist twats.
    I agree with the bolded to a certain point. I believe the burqa symbolises the opression of women and to this end can not be compared with many other articles of clothing.
    The underlined i agree with partially but not entirely because i think it dosn't miss the point but a lot more does need to be done. I don't personally agree with the way France are going about things but i do hope the move will spur other kinds of action, namely from groups/spokespeople of feminist women living in opressive conditions. It certainly has a lot of debates going already.
    There are also a lot of French people who are not racist, i'm presuming the generalisation was aimed at the government.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

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