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  1. #131
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Your failure to respond in a meaningful way to my last post speaks volumes...It's called "a debate".

    Oh, that's a tasty little implication. Who was "mourning the burqua again"? :rolli: Please point to where this was said or implied anywhere in the thread? This appears to be yet more disinguenuousness because you lack a rational argument.
    I don't know where you get the idea that I agreed to debate with you, or that I have any obligation to present what you call a rational argument. I can express myself however I choose, within the TOU. I fail to respond to you in any meaningful way because you're aggressive, accusatory, and deliberately insulting.

  2. #132
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    I'd just like to ask people

    What percentage of Muslim women, do you believe, are wearing the burqa (full covering not hijab) covering out of choice?

    For me the issue is not regarding how i percieve people to look, or how what someone may wear would offend me or others around me.
    For me it is to do with opression of women within a religious pretence, i see the burqa as symbolic of this.
    If a woman is forced to wear a burqa or even groomed to do so it would make utter sense that she would be reluctant to remove it because a new law has passed. Don't forget many Muslim women have already been through various laws being passed that required them to take them off and not wear them. Then it has gone back to forced wearing again...esp Islamic countries that have had communist take overs.
    There is a lot worse an oppressive dictatorship can do than the French government. Some places women get arrested and or beaten (and worse) for not wearing the burqa correctly.
    This is why i don't imagine you will get the two thousand women running out of their French house's and burning their burqa's, they are afraid.
    But what is the solution?
    Where do we start?
    and how?
    Ugh... Stop wiping the shit off of shit maybe? Go for the source.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

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    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
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  3. #133
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    My problem with the banning is this: since when was Western culture designated the bastion of freedom and morality? Sure from a Western perspective the burqa is a symbol of our idea of oppression; it's certainly not what myself or a lot of us were were taught was the definition of "liberation". But a good friend from Iran asked me this question and I think it's a really good one to think about.

    Who is really being exploited? Who is really liberated? Her?



    or her?



    It's about perspective. but when it comes down to it people in glass houses should not throw stones, and in this case i really don't think Western culture is in any position to be throwing stones until we get our own brand of the exploitation of the female body under control. This isn't to say the burqa isn't necessarily problematic, but to say that France has liberated these poor women (many of whom might not even feel comfortable making public appearances now) is ignoring a whole other cultural perspective on the issue and I don't see banning being a good way to solve this problem. The only way i see this being a good thing is if the women affected actually feel liberated by this, and time will tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I don't know where you get the idea that I agreed to debate with you, or that I have any obligation to present what you call a rational argument. I can express myself however I choose, within the TOU. I fail to respond to you in any meaningful way because you're aggressive, accusatory, and deliberately insulting.
    and i'm sorry but while it might not be against the rules i think it's really disingenuous for you to come into a thread in a forum that is basically set aside for debate/discussion, give your opinions and ideas, but then take your ball and go home when someone calls you out on it. ragashree might be a little harsh but that's debate for you, and while it might be harsher than you'd prefer it's most certainly not aggressive and i really don't see how it's insulting except for the fact that he's calling you out on something. Personally i'd love to see your point of view, but we can't do that if you're not willing to stand by and discuss the points of view you so willingly laid out for all of us to read in the first place.
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  4. #134
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Is it right to force people to embrace freedom?
    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory
    My problem with the banning is this: since when was Western culture designated the bastion of freedom and morality?


    i have several friends who wear hijab, the veil, completely of their own accord. i find it rather lovely actually and they treat it like a meaningful fashion accessory, owning many different styles and patterns and textures and colors. for one girl, her parents actually discouraged it, but she wanted to a an outward sign of her faith and to represent that a young muslim woman can be modern, peaceful, independent, and a totally normal college kid. (okay, besides not binge drinking)

    now, burqas are much more extreme, but i still don't understand why they should be outlawed. a french man can wear a long coat, loose slacks, shoes, a scarf, and a low hat and not get in trouble, yet he is covering up in a similar fashion. that's because... he's not religious? hm, does not really sound like égalité to me

    if the problem is the men enforcing this upon their wives, then fine or sentence the man for psychological abuse.

    otherwise, let people wear what they want to wear.

    At least they're consistent in their crusade for the holy cause of secularism, I suppose we should give them that...
    lol agreed

  5. #135
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Just another perspective - we seem to be mostly assuming (from what I have read) that the people wearing the burqa are from new-French - ie newly arrived migrants, workers or refugees.

    If I were a second or third generation French Muslim woman I would be very annoyed and feel oppressed by such laws.

    @ TiltyRed - I think you may have been seduced by the fashion industry and associated magazines. I believe that you do French women a strong injustice, and am almost certain that those who consider aesthetics in France to be a high agenda politico-cultural issue and worthy of legislation would be in the relative minority.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
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  6. #136
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post


    Personally i'd love to see your point of view, but we can't do that if you're not willing to stand by and discuss the points of view you so willingly laid out for all of us to read in the first place.
    I'd like to point out a view... The view of that gigantic hamburger, that is.

    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  7. #137
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Stringstheory, the girl in the bikini chooses to pose in that bikini. She won't be threatened with death or a lashing if she decides not to wear one. So how is that comparable to the hijab? I'm not saying every woman who doesn't cover up is going to be harmed, but in some Muslim countries it is certainly that way. I don't know any Western country that does the same with a bikini.
    I don't know about other girls, but I think, during the summer, I feel forced to wear a bikini, because it's the only reasonably priced swimsuit that's fashionable. So either I spend a sh*t-ton of money on an expensive, vintage-style one-piece, or I wear an ugly old lady swimsuit, or I wear a bikini. And I always end up wearing a bikini, despite the fact that I hate the fact that I feel forced to show all that skin when I'd rather not. This obviously isn't the same as being threatened with death/lashing - but it's still being threatened with humiliation, and it's an example of how Western culture also forces women to follow certain clothing trends.

    Also, you're assuming that no women choose to wear the burqa. Believe it or not, some do. Should we ban the burqa because some, but not all, of the women who wear them are forced to?


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if the problem is the men enforcing this upon their wives, then fine or sentence the man for psychological abuse.

    otherwise, let people wear what they want to wear.
    Absolutely.

    The only problem is the photo-ID issue. Besides that, I don't see a problem with conservative Muslim women wearing what they feel gives them a stronger connection to God.
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  8. #138
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    It's odd that a uniform determines your faith and not your faith itself.
    You mean to say that you think it's odd that your faith doesn't determine your faith - instead, a uniform does it? What do you mean by 'faith' is the thing I'm getting at... Are you talking about a belief in the unseen or a persons denomination?

    What if one doesn't care for religion? Do people have to accept the things you do because it's your religion?
    No, but they shouldn't be xenophobes either.


    Stringstheory, the girl in the bikini chooses to pose in that bikini. She won't be threatened with death or a lashing if she decides not to wear one.
    Maybe we should test this opinion out... I say we find this girl and make her take off her bikini immediately! IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE!

    So how is that comparable to the hijab? I'm not saying every woman who doesn't cover up is going to be harmed, but in some Muslim countries it is certainly that way. I don't know any Western country that does the same with a bikini.
    You missed her point.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #139
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Not specifically on this issue but quasi related, anyone who is prepared to have any preconceptions on women in the Middle East challenged, visit The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) .

    I have been following this group of brave women and their issues since well before 9/11. In the light of what they experience at home in Afghanistan, the thought that a Western Society in which some may have been given refuge should impose such a law seems a sad indictment of what we consider important.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  10. #140
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    This & esp the vid report from 1.40-2.00 for the specific type of veil (niqab) that has been banned
    Criminalising women behind the veil
    The answer must be in the attempt
    avy url : natgeocreative Photo

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