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  1. #101
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    That's not at all what I meant, and "fuck the sandnigger terrorists" makes me sick to my stomach.
    And forbidding people to wear clothing that is religiously significant to them, for no good reason, doesn't?

  2. #102
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think people should assimilate into their host culture.

    There, I've said it. I'm Borg.

    There are extremely good reasons but I understand your mind is made up on this issue so I won't try to change it. I'm sorry that France's decision causes you pain and I apologize that my delight in it offended you. It was not my intention.

  3. #103
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Doesn't anyone just find it bizarre that an entire country has a dress code anyway?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #104
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    No, I'm quite serious. I'm giddy with delight that France is holding true to their ideal that their women should be chic and stylish. I know there are other reasons. But whatever the reason, it's refreshing to my soul to see a country proud of and holding onto its aesthetic ideals at least. I like to see people take a stand.

    ETA: "President Nicolas Sarkozy, on the other hand, has expressed that people in France should not be displaying their religious views to the public." I think that's very wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Quite right, Tiltyred. What else matters in our society or should matter, beyond aesthetics? Appearance is everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    No. A country having such a well-formed identity and being unashamed to express it makes me happy. I realize this impinges on the ideas of some of the people in that country. Y'all can talk about that; that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the French being proud to be French, knowing what being French is, and not deviating from their Frenchness. Even if they're wrong, I love how fiercely they defend their national identity.
    You're being wildly disingenuous here. You just tried to make your interpretation of what constitutes national identity all about aesthetics, then denied that you had tried to make it all about aesthetics. Is that not what you meant to say then? Either you're incredibly shallow and unable to string a reasoned argument together over this, or you don't want to admit to your true views, which appear to amount to favouring forced cultural assimilation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Axiom: You can't make all the people happy all the time.

    Women who want to wear the burqa will feel oppressed. Women who are offended at seeing other women wear the burqa will feel oppressed if it continues to be worn. There is no happy medium. Someone will have to change his/her viewpoint. As it is, the women who don't feel comfortable unless they're covered are going to have to figure out a solution. If it had gone differently, which it very well may have, the women who are offended by burqas would have to change their viewpoints. Whose view is better? It's pointless to debate. You could argue either one until the cows come home and make no progress on either side.
    Obviously those who implicitly support the concept of discrimination against others will do so in line with their own preferences; whereas those who are not are simply against needless discrimination, in whatever form it takes. I find you perfectly consistent, but your attempts at rationalising away your own bias as being for the good of others is very weak. No one "has" to change their personal viewpoints to accomodate the superficial prejudices of others; this is the essence of living in a tolerant society as opposed to a proscriptive authoritarian one. Don't you understand that? You're the one who lives in and has benefitted from a tolerant society, don't you want to stand up for the values it exemplifies?

    Tolerance means accepting that those who choose to live differently to yourself or have different opinions on certain matters have the right to do so freely; as long as this does not break accepted laws or destroy the fabric of society. Trying to force others to accept your own beliefs and lifestyle preferences, whoever's good you rationalise it as being for, is not tolerance. Simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I would not like it at all. I would move.

    Maybe it's my upbringing -- I moved a lot in my life, and had to adapt to different cultures. I know people can adapt and change and I feel it's inevitable, so I don't really understand the fuss. I'm sure this seems insensitive and I don't mean to be hurtful in any way, so please excuse if you would.
    Please note what I've already said on this:

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Given that most Westerners who are subject to these rules are well-paid migrant workers or holidaymakers who are there because they choose and can leave when they wish, whereas most Muslims who are targetted by this kind of legislation are citizens of or refugees to the country concerned, it's hardly a situation of equivalency either.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    Oh I agree, fuck the sandnigger terrorists and their culture. They should stay out of our lands, just like we stay out of theirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    That's not at all what I meant, and "fuck the sandnigger terrorists" makes me sick to my stomach.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    And forbidding people to wear clothing that is religiously significant to them, for no good reason, doesn't?
    It's ok, I detected the irony It oft exposes the cognitive dissonance that lies at the roots of what we call hypocrisy
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  5. #105
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Does anybody else find it cruel that the laws that protect public nudity all seem to apply to places too cold most of the time to take advantage of them?
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  6. #106
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think people should assimilate into their host culture.

    There, I've said it. I'm Borg.

    There are extremely good reasons but I understand your mind is made up on this issue so I won't try to change it. I'm sorry that France's decision causes you pain and I apologize that my delight in it offended you. It was not my intention.
    That's sort of a holdover of a colonial imperialist worldview.

    To put it another way, the colonists to North America didn't exactly assimilate into native cultures.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  7. #107
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Ragashree, you're being really tedious. We were talking about France, not me. France has very definite aesthetics that they are proud of, one being that their women are chic. Personally I do not give a damn. It was not about me.

    But since I cannot mourn the burqa, I'll leave the thread to those who can.

  8. #108
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    You have more chances of being robbed by someone in a closed faced motorcycle helmet or a ski mask than by someone in a Burqua!
    In fairness, those will be covered by the legislation too. It's just that the burqa is drawing all the fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I have mixed feelings about this. I suspect that the prohibition is only going to force patriarchal behaviors underground, the oppressed women along with them. So now, instead of being allowed to go out if they are covered, these women just won't be allowed to go out at all so their husbands/fathers are not fined for forcing them to wear the full veil in public.
    I think defiance will be the response, rather than hiding. A number of Muslim sponsors have already offered to pay any fines. I just worry about escalation.
    Thanks for the links.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Even if they're wrong, I love how fiercely they defend their national identity.
    resists....impulse....to....Godwin.....thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think people should assimilate into their host culture.
    There is that. I mean, if your views are completely at odds with a strictly secular society, perhaps you should reconsider whether staying there is compatible with your ideals. I know, for example, that I would refuse to work in, let alone settle in, the likes of Saudi Arabia, for ethical reasons. Or even USA, for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #109
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    After the vote, Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said it was a victory for democracy and for French values. "Values of freedom against all the oppressions which try to humiliate individuals; values of equality between men and women, against those who push for inequality and injustice."
    Am I the only one that can see the irony here? This is not freedom, not at all, it's restrictive and all-encompasing. It is just as totalitarian as the thing it's trying to remove. What the fuck. Hell, what if a woman wanted to wear a fucking burqa because she thought it was sexy - no, you can't wear it now - irony. What if a woman wanted to wear it because of her religion - nope, all beliefs are not equally respected - irony. Seriously, feminists are completely insane when it comes to things like this. Now, please let me say, I am probably more feminist than the average bub, it's just that they don't make a whole lot of sense sometimes. I see the logic but I think they have overcompensated and that they have gone too far.

    Besides, the people wearing these are a freaking small group. How about you open up doors for these women instead of closing them in and alienating them?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  10. #110
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Hmmm...



    Am I the only one that can see the irony here? This is not freedom, not at all, it's restrictive and all-encompasing. It is just as totalitarian as the thing it's trying to remove. What the fuck. Hell, what if a woman wanted to wear a fucking burqa because she thought it was sexy - no, you can't wear it now - irony. What if a woman wanted to wear it because of her religion - nope, all beliefs are not equally respected - irony. Seriously, feminists are completely insane when it comes to things like this. Now, please let me say, I am probably more feminist than the average bub, it's just that they don't make a whole lot of sense sometimes. I see the logic but I think they have overcompensated and that they have gone too far.

    Besides, the people wearing these are a freaking small group. How about you open up doors for these women instead of closing them in and alienating them?
    You're making the mistake of trying to see the issue from somebody else's perspective. This is not something a responsible constituent nor a fit organism would do. Act only in your best interests and embrace the tyranny of the majority. In the end, one would hope that France could only strengthen national unity by pursuing this course of action.

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