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  1. #21
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    My main disagreement is simply one of definition. Calling anti-Muslims racist is kinda like calling your strict high-school teacher a Nazi. It's not racism by definition, despite the common overlap.
    Oooh - I think some would indeed argue that this is so
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  2. #22
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I think "bigot" works fine, if one doesn't mind it cutting several ways.
    Touche!!!
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
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  3. #23
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    The article´s point seemed to be that racism was never only about biology, it has always contained a strong cultural component and now that we learn as children that the genetic differences between "races" are much smaller than the genetic differences within an ethnicity, the cultural component has increased even more. Therefor the term "racism" was never well chosen in the first place, because it was always xenophobia: the fear of things foreign.

    If you say that people with skin color X are lazy, of below average intelligence, have too many children, you get into trouble. Now just say "Arabs and Turks" (i.e. Muslims) instead and you get invited into talk shows with people padding you on the shoulder as was the case with Thilo Sarazzin, board member of the German Central Bank.

    As for the role of women: many of the supposedly islamic traditions Westerners criticize (and rightfully so if you believe in moral universals as I do) have very little to do with the religion and date back to pre-islamic customs of the region. Yes, there are juicy parts in the Koran, but you find them in the Bible or the Torah as well. The three monotheistic religions all contain a bunch of laws and "wisdoms" that are "more honoured in the breach than the observance". Enlightened humane religion needs education (well, at least it helps). There are many different shades of Islam as there are different shades of Christianity or Judaism. If you worry about the radicals, support the moderates! Throwing them into one pot with bin Laden doesn´t exactly help, just saying.
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  4. #24
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    In your article, complaining about honour killings was called racist, despite no mention of race.
    No. The argument is that this idea that there is something specifically Islamic about "honour killings", is a profoudnly racist idea. Because "Islamic" in this sense means the uncivilized, barbaric "east".

    I do not think "racism" is a personal issue. Societies are built on certain myths. In many cases those are racist. There is a strong racist discourse in the west right now. It is covered up by "cultural" arguments against "Islam", but the purpose it serves is to legitimise the slaughter and war agaisnt whole nations of the "east".

    The article is not a request for individual people to navel gaze about "surely I can't be racist". Rather it is a critique of dominant ideolgoies that people - who are mostly not racist on a personal level - buy into.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I agree as a matter of sheer technicality that this can't be called racism. This is prejudice and discrimination based on other factors.

    There is a connection to some racism, though. As Haphazard said, people don't pay much attention to Muslims who are completely European, or from south-east Asia. Actually, even the ones from the sub-Saharan Africa are looked over. Now, if it is made explicitly clear that any one of these people is a Muslim, there will likely be prejudice against them for it, but it wouldn't have come up until the mention it.

    But people, or at least the majority populations, from north Africa, Asia Minor, and pretty much much everywhere south of the Caspian between the Mediterranean and Burma, are discriminate against for being Muslim pretty much on site, before anyone has asked if they are Muslim. This is especially absurd concerning the people from the Indian sub-continent, a very great many of who are not Muslim at all. But these people basically are experiencing racism as a result of anti-Muslim sentiments. They look like a Muslim is supposed to look, in the minds of many an ignorant westerner.
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  6. #26
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Actually, even the ones from the sub-Saharan Africa are looked over.
    I'm guessing this one depends on where you live. If you're in Minneapolis, you'll hear white people working retail complain about Somali customers until the cows come home.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #27
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is until you're on the receiving end of racism or any form of discrimination yourself, you will never ever have any idea what it's like. You might think you do, but you don't.

    However, I don't think hypersensitivity to racism like what's happening now is the answer either. Right now we're just pointing fingers and calling each other racists. A lot of people seem to think that we can end racism by 'stop being racist'. The root of the problem is deeper and way more complicated than that. People fear the unknown. It's our instinct to be wary of things we don't know. Are they really wrong to be afraid of things they don't understand?

    No, the real answer is exposure. People need to mix. We need to learn about foreign cultures. We need to read their books, watch their movies, listen to their music, speak their languages. We need to get to know people from different cultures. We need to stop being people of specific races and regions and start being people of the world.

    I have a lot of hope for the younger generations
    Very true.

    There's also the element of "feel good" because you're in the elite group. People take pride in being in "cream" section of humanity and they don't want to let that go.
    As far as culture and race go, I have seen too many arguments when people will say that ________ are better because they have produced ___________. Like culture has been inherited along with physical traits and so-and-so will be better because they possess the physical traits that supposedly match that particular (advanced) culture.

    I hope this isn't too muzzy...I'm still waiting on my coffee delivery.

  8. #28
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Does criticizing American Christian Fundamentalists make you an anti-WASP racist, tcda?

    If not, then your entire OP is bunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    No. The argument is that this idea that there is something specifically Islamic about "honour killings", is a profoudnly racist idea. Because "Islamic" in this sense means the uncivilized, barbaric "east".
    I am going to rock-the-boat and suggest that "Islamic" means "relating to Islam."

    I do not know any Westerner who believes that China, Korea, Japan, India, and SE Asia are full of "barbarians" as you say.

  9. #29
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Does criticizing American Christian Fundamentalists make you an anti-WASP racist, tcda?

    If not, then your entire OP is bunk.
    No, you just missed the point of it.

    Does criticizing Judaism make you anti-semitic? no.

    Does arguing that the Jewish community is an exceptional threat to western civilization and therefore shpould be place dudner special scrutiny make you one? Yes.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #30
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Does arguing that the Jewish community is an exceptional threat to western civilization and therefore shpould be placed under special scrutiny make you one? Yes.
    So what do you think of the western WASP establishment, tcda? The white Anglo bourgeoisie? Collectively, is it hero or villain?

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