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  1. #61
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes, sexual "orientation" as a concept dates back to the 19th century. There was no concept of sexual "orientation" back in ancient times, whether in regards to the Greeks or even to the Bible. So already one is operating under an anarchronism here as to how "homosexuality" is being understood.
    Yeah, its a little like a modern person such as you or I trying to imagine how someone could have ritually slaughtered animals and children to placate an angry earth shaking God.

    No matter how much of an effort we make to try and imagine or empathise ourselves into that role we KNOW about earthquakes, tetonic shifts, natural disasters and we KNOW about superstition, we're forever different as a consequence.

    For all the people interpreting ancient greece in one way there's others interpreting it in another, for the people who consider the urns with acts of "boy love" on them and consider it to be some sort gay men's utopia there's other interpretations which suggest its a taboo, as in "you simply mustnt do" or "the next villa are bastards, they rape their kids".

    Similarly much of the historical appraisals of earlier or historic societies from earlier times, such as the nineteenth century when considerations of orientations arose (Peguy is that the Psythopathia Sexalis - spelling- you're talking about?), where highly prejorative, villifying sodomy and seeing it as an act of violence or domination. At least the sodomy as rape and never a consensual act is something they choose to focus upon, such as the rape of surrending chieftains by Roman generals.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To be truthful I dont think that homosexuality could cause cultural decline, its been a constant in some shape of form for a long time, however has it had/sought/be ascribed the cultural status it presently has before? What is the consequences of that?
    In the grand scheme of things, homosexuality is largely irrelevant. In my view, the fact it's been brought to the center of attention is indicative of the wider trend of emphasising the "importance of unimportant things" as Chesterton put it.

    Yeah, its a little like a modern person such as you or I trying to imagine how someone could have ritually slaughtered animals and children to placate an angry earth shaking God.

    No matter how much of an effort we make to try and imagine or empathise ourselves into that role we KNOW about earthquakes, tetonic shifts, natural disasters and we KNOW about superstition, we're forever different as a consequence.

    For all the people interpreting ancient greece in one way there's others interpreting it in another, for the people who consider the urns with acts of "boy love" on them and consider it to be some sort gay men's utopia there's other interpretations which suggest its a taboo, as in "you simply mustnt do" or "the next villa are bastards, they rape their kids".

    Similarly much of the historical appraisals of earlier or historic societies from earlier times, such as the nineteenth century when considerations of orientations arose (Peguy is that the Psythopathia Sexalis - spelling- you're talking about?), where highly prejorative, villifying sodomy and seeing it as an act of violence or domination. At least the sodomy as rape and never a consensual act is something they choose to focus upon, such as the rape of surrending chieftains by Roman generals.
    Yes it certainly requires one gain a perspective on how these acts were seen in society. Magic or anybody else is mistaken in arguing that there were no stigma attached to "homosexual" activities. Actually there were, although it may not make sense to modern sensibilities. To the Greeks there were two main positions for sex: active and passive. For a man to be in the passive role was indeed very shameful and disgraceful. This mentality also existed among the Romans, in the form of the Lex Scantinia, which made same-sex activity among free-born citzens a capital offense. Slaves were another issue, but as the link explains: "same-sex activities with slaves were however not encouraged as a form of sexual pleasure. In fact, same-sex activities were rather regarded as punishment for bad slaves, inherently identical to beatings."

  3. #63
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I haven't done any historical research myself, but I've heard NT Wright, the Bishop of Durham, mention that long term and public same-sex relationships would have occurred in 1st century greece. Wright doesn't really take a firm stance on homosexuality and he's a pretty reliable historian.

    edit: source
    Interview with Anglican Bishop N.T. Wright of Durham, England
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I haven't done any historical research myself, but I've heard NT Wright, the Bishop of Durham, mention that long term and public same-sex relationships would have occurred in 1st century greece. Wright doesn't really take a firm stance on homosexuality and he's a pretty reliable historian.
    Can you cite the source where he makes this claim?

  5. #65
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Can you cite the source where he makes this claim?
    heh, did it before you asked.

    specifically he mentions Plato's symposium.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post

    specifically he mentions Plato's symposium.
    Ahh thought so. Problem is, I believe this is the character Aristophanes advocating for such unions, but of course is refuted later on by Plato's spokesman Socrates. Elsewhere, particularly Laws 636c, Plato certainly does not approve of it.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In the grand scheme of things, homosexuality is largely irrelevant. In my view, the fact it's been brought to the center of attention is indicative of the wider trend of emphasising the "importance of unimportant things" as Chesterton put it.
    Are you sure he wasn't talking about this?


    Yes it certainly requires one gain a perspective on how these acts were seen in society. Magic or anybody else is mistaken in arguing that there were no stigma attached to "homosexual" activities. Actually there were, although it may not make sense to modern sensibilities. To the Greeks there were two main positions for sex: active and passive. For a man to be in the passive role was indeed very shameful and disgraceful. This mentality also existed among the Romans, in the form of the Lex Scantinia, which made same-sex activity among free-born citzens a capital offense. Slaves were another issue, but as the link explains: "same-sex activities with slaves were however not encouraged as a form of sexual pleasure. In fact, same-sex activities were rather regarded as punishment for bad slaves, inherently identical to beatings."
    I stand corrected. Somehow I had the thought that they sodomized frequently and freely in the bathhouses or something. I've also seen art depicting certain images, which made me think that it was stigma free.

  8. #68
    facettes de la petite mor Words of Ivory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The only way to properly enforce them would be to turn the entire place into a surveillance state..
    They should move their party over to the UK and try to get a footing in the government there. They'd feel right at home.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    if you'll only take the time to hear it."
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Are you sure he wasn't talking about this?
    Well that's another manifestation of what Im talking about.


    I stand corrected. Somehow I had the thought that they sodomized frequently and freely in the bathhouses or something. I've also seen art depicting certain images, which made me think that it was stigma free.
    Well that's common image many would like you to think. Certainly it did occur and in some instances tolerated, although again one has to be careful where you wish to pursue with it.

    The passive role was seen as shameful for any male free citizen to engage in. It was best reserved for women, slaves, or young boys. We already noted how same-sex relations with slaves was largely done for purposes of punishment and intimidation. It seems to be widely acknowledged that the most common form of same-sex relations that occured in Ancient Greece-Rome was often between an adult male and a younger boy. Although while this tended to be more tolerated among the upper classes, it was generally seen more negatively among the lower classes.

  10. #70
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ahh thought so. Problem is, I believe this is the character Aristophanes advocating for such unions, but of course is refuted later on by Plato's spokesman Socrates. Elsewhere, particularly Laws 636c, Plato certainly does not approve of it.
    Approval and awareness are two separate things.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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