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  1. #31
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Well it seems that America certainly is not short on home grown terrorists... too bad there doesn't seem to be much outrage in response to this kind of terrorism.

    One muslim guy recently tries and fails to set off a badly designed car bomb in New York and it's all over the national headlines - everyone is in a panic - meanwhile we've got home grown crazies shooting down police officers with AK47s and more planning similar attacks and it barely makes the news. WTF?!

    Sigh... somedays I just can't believe this is the same country so many people fought and died for..

    - Deadly Arkansas Shooting By Sovereign Citizens Jerry Kane and Joseph Kane - ABC News

    - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/us/30militia.html

    - FBI agents arrest 2 in Ohio; militia suspected target | cleveland.com
    It should have made the news - especially the one from AR as that group is apparently large and growing. Unfortunate losses for those officers families. I've never heard of these movements, but they are very misguided people; God tells Christians to obey the law/government authority, pay taxes, and to not even speak badly about those in positions of authority.
    Last edited by ThinkingAboutIt; 07-19-2010 at 11:42 PM. Reason: I deleted that they were not Christians. Maybe they were. Christians are not perfect. I sure am not.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    I think you confuse British Nationalists for American Libertarians...no libertarian supports a police state, period.

    Platform | Libertarian Party


    Why is Britain banning self-defense (the most fundamental human right)?

    Why is the US banning smoking?

    Why is London canvased by security cameras?

    Why does the US ban drugs at all?

    Why do we have a Patriot Act?

    ---

    Looking at the present world, it is abundantly clear that Keynesian governments work to increase their own power, as is obvious in both the US and the UK.

    The fact that Americans are rapidly losing our freedoms at the same time as we are "stimulating" our economy to death is no coincidence.


    Re-read my metaphor, but substitute social programs for ice cream.
    I'm not confusing anything, I'll thank you not to make ASSumptions like that either.

    The reality is that libertarians believe that where an authority is, by their measure, legitimate, it should be given maximum power, so you have states that are willing to do anything to protect property, business agendas and prohibit workers rights and there is no libertarian argument with that.

    I'm beginning to think that you're either willfully ignorant or just an ideologue, either way there's no point discussing with you further, all the states you mentioned are neo-liberal states, the corporate economic agendas they want to enforce require powerful police states because they create mass unemployment, displacement, slow growth and remove massive amounts of money from the economy, reduce the consumer base and hit peoples spending power hard.

    If people beyond a shadow of a doubt realise that unless they are part of some sort of dynastic rich family they are going to only be able to dream of home ownership or other basic/moderate/middle class dreams they will become disgruntled and aggrieved, particularly if they are hard working and striving themselves, now at the minute that grievance is being channelled pretty well by the neo-liberals into bashing poor people, the 1% benefits even more and working people even less.

    Once any sembalence of right wing utopia and illusions have been lost, and it will happen it happened to the left wing and it will no doubt happen to the right wing also, I dont believe society at present will be able to absorb the psychological impact of people realising they are modern day serfs.

  3. #33
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The reality is that libertarians believe that where an authority is, by their measure, legitimate, it should be given maximum power, so you have states that are willing to do anything to protect property, business agendas and prohibit workers rights and there is no libertarian argument with that.
    The more you type, the more I realize you have no grasp of the American Libertarian movement.

    I do not know if this is because you have virtually no experience with actual Libertarians in the United States, or because you are purposefully making things up to troll libertarians on forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm beginning to think that you're either willfully ignorant or just an ideologue, either way there's no point discussing with you further, all the states you mentioned are neo-liberal states,
    You consider the British Labour party to be neo-liberal? Seriously?

    *facepalm*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    the corporate economic agendas they want to enforce require powerful police states because they create mass unemployment, displacement, slow growth and remove massive amounts of money from the economy, reduce the consumer base and hit peoples spending power hard.
    Precisely what removes massive amounts of money from the economy?

    Keynesian stimulus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If people beyond a shadow of a doubt realise that unless they are part of some sort of dynastic rich family they are going to only be able to dream of home ownership or other basic/moderate/middle class dreams they will become disgruntled and aggrieved, particularly if they are hard working and striving themselves, now at the minute that grievance is being channelled pretty well by the neo-liberals into bashing poor people, the 1% benefits even more and working people even less.
    If this is how it is in Ireland, you have my sympathy. Fortunately, I live in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Once any sembalence of right wing utopia and illusions have been lost, and it will happen it happened to the left wing and it will no doubt happen to the right wing also, I dont believe society at present will be able to absorb the psychological impact of people realising they are modern day serfs.
    Serfs cannot own property.
    Serfs cannot start a business.
    Serfs cannot trade stocks.
    Serfs cannot become educated.

    A young person with intelligence and drive can do all these things in America, regardless of their family background and personal wealth. I have witnessed this first-hand.

  4. #34
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not confusing anything, I'll thank you not to make ASSumptions like that either.

    The reality is that libertarians believe that where an authority is, by their measure, legitimate, it should be given maximum power, so you have states that are willing to do anything to protect property, business agendas and prohibit workers rights and there is no libertarian argument with that.

    I'm beginning to think that you're either willfully ignorant or just an ideologue, either way there's no point discussing with you further, all the states you mentioned are neo-liberal states, the corporate economic agendas they want to enforce require powerful police states because they create mass unemployment, displacement, slow growth and remove massive amounts of money from the economy, reduce the consumer base and hit peoples spending power hard.

    If people beyond a shadow of a doubt realise that unless they are part of some sort of dynastic rich family they are going to only be able to dream of home ownership or other basic/moderate/middle class dreams they will become disgruntled and aggrieved, particularly if they are hard working and striving themselves, now at the minute that grievance is being channelled pretty well by the neo-liberals into bashing poor people, the 1% benefits even more and working people even less.

    Once any sembalence of right wing utopia and illusions have been lost, and it will happen it happened to the left wing and it will no doubt happen to the right wing also, I dont believe society at present will be able to absorb the psychological impact of people realising they are modern day serfs.

    How do you explain the fact that I do not come from a dynastic, rich family, yet I am going to a very good (private) university to receive an MBA, and I may even stretch it into a JD/MBA program? If I complete, my first-year salary four years from now could be in the $150K-per-year range, so more than both of my parents combined have ever made in a year. Even if I don't, I should start a corporate position at about $70-75K a year with great benefits, and I should move up quickly from there. If I make about $300K per year, I would be in the top 1% of income earners in the United States (and I better end up there, given how much I am spending on education). How did this happen if upward mobility is such an illusion?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #35
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    The more you type, the more I realize you have no grasp of the American Libertarian movement.

    I do not know if this is because you have virtually no experience with actual Libertarians in the United States, or because you are purposefully making things up to troll libertarians on forums.


    You consider the British Labour party to be neo-liberal? Seriously?

    *facepalm*


    Precisely what removes massive amounts of money from the economy?

    Keynesian stimulus?


    If this is how it is in Ireland, you have my sympathy. Fortunately, I live in America.


    Serfs cannot own property.
    Serfs cannot start a business.
    Serfs cannot trade stocks.
    Serfs cannot become educated.

    A young person with intelligence and drive can do all these things in America, regardless of their family background and personal wealth. I have witnessed this first-hand.
    Good luck with that.

    I'm not trolling anyone, I'm not comfortable with a neat and tidy ideology and you are, that's the fundamental and basic difference between the two of us.

    Where I'd take the approach of Einstein and test my paradigms of political economy to destruction, you're more inclined to simply believe yours are "the truth" and the more evidence that's supplied to the contrary the more you're sure its from a suspect source or propaganda. You're not skeptical in the least and you're not persuasive.

    The UK Labour party has behaved Neo-Liberal, in fact its hard to find any party since the eighties that has behaved any other way, hence prominant UK Labour government ministers repeatedly stating that "We're all Thatcherites now" but you'll likely dismiss that too.

  6. #36
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Good luck with that.

    I'm not trolling anyone, I'm not comfortable with a neat and tidy ideology and you are, that's the fundamental and basic difference between the two of us.

    Where I'd take the approach of Einstein and test my paradigms of political economy to destruction, you're more inclined to simply believe yours are "the truth" and the more evidence that's supplied to the contrary the more you're sure its from a suspect source or propaganda. You're not skeptical in the least and you're not persuasive.

    The UK Labour party has behaved Neo-Liberal, in fact its hard to find any party since the eighties that has behaved any other way, hence prominant UK Labour government ministers repeatedly stating that "We're all Thatcherites now" but you'll likely dismiss that too.

    What about the mountains of evidence supporting free-market economics?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #37
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Good luck with that.
    My family is living proof of the opportunity in America.

    My great-grandfather was an uneducated serf in Slovakia. My grandfather was an elementary-school educated automobile mechanic in America. My father was a high-school-educated plant mechanic. I am a college-educated medical scientist and businessman.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Where I'd take the approach of Einstein and test my paradigms of political economy to destruction, you're more inclined to simply believe yours are "the truth" and the more evidence that's supplied to the contrary the more you're sure its from a suspect source or propaganda. You're not skeptical in the least and you're not persuasive.
    You killed that strawman with such efficiency, I applaud you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The UK Labour party has behaved Neo-Liberal, in fact its hard to find any party since the eighties that has behaved any other way, hence prominant UK Labour government ministers repeatedly stating that "We're all Thatcherites now" but you'll likely dismiss that too.
    Is the National Health Service part of the Neo-Liberal agenda, too?

    It seems you blame everything you don't like in society on a neo-liberal boogeyman.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    ^ Yeah, Americas Newest Crazies

  9. #39
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ^ Yeah, Americas Newest Crazies
    Ad hominems?


  10. #40
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    See, Mad. Mad I tell you.

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