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  1. #21
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And if your posts are anything to do by on the right wing exactly the contra is true.
    Even us hated Libertarians accept some forms of government regulation...principally transportation, defense, anti-fraud, and anti-trust.

    We're not anarchists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Now tell me where the logical contradiction or inconsistency be, following my argument in the whole of the thread about myopic, perfectionist ideology vs. the real world, in supporting Keynesianism but not supporting statism which prevents self-defence?
    Simply put, Keynesian-style government interventions naturally lead to statism, as you need a powerful state in order to perform the interventions.

    In the real world, politicians love power...the expectation for them to stay out of your personal life, when they already control your wallet, is not supported by history.

    I assume that you have already learned this in Britain...a government that wants to take care of you financially, will also want to take care of you personally. Hence the insane self-defense, smoking, trash, and seemingly endless number of new personal regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I mean your logic is a little like suggesting that jelly and ice cream are different, therefore they will never be served together.
    I am saying that eating ice cream, regardless of flavor or toppings, will make you fat. That doesn't mean we can't ever enjoy ice cream, but IMO, both the EU and the US have been binging (especially in Greece, Spain, and Portugal).


  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Even us hated Libertarians accept some forms of government regulation...principally transportation, defense, anti-fraud, and anti-trust.

    We're not anarchists.


    Simply put, Keynesian-style government interventions naturally lead to statism, as you need a powerful state in order to perform the interventions.

    In the real world, politicians love power...the expectation for them to stay out of your personal life, when they already control your wallet, is not supported by history.

    I assume that you have already learned this in Britain...a government that wants to take care of you financially, will also want to take care of you personally. Hence the insane self-defense, smoking, trash, and seemingly endless number of new personal regulations.


    I am saying that eating ice cream, regardless of flavor or toppings, will make you fat. That doesn't mean we can't ever enjoy ice cream, but IMO, both the EU and the US have been binging (especially in Greece, Spain, and Portugal).

    Yeah, this has been another great big post of wrong, I hope you're young or wish you long life that you'll live to see that.

    Libertarians want a massive police state to take care of the poor or kill the surplus wage earners, Keynesianism doesnt lead to statism that's a lot of voodoo and looking at the present world, where every society employs a version of Keynesianism should make that apparent, I dont have a clue what you're going on about ice cream.

  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Even us hated Libertarians accept some forms of government regulation...principally transportation, defense, anti-fraud, and anti-trust.

    We're not anarchists.
    You're minarchists, and I don't think that will work either.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Simply put, Keynesian-style government interventions naturally lead to statism, as you need a powerful state in order to perform the interventions.
    I'm not sure how you're defining statism here, but as far as I can tell, government of any sort pretty much trends toward statism automatically. Also, large populations encorage statism. So does advanced technology. All of these things are related to each other, by the way.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #24
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Libertarians want a massive police state to take care of the poor or kill the surplus wage earners
    I think you confuse British Nationalists for American Libertarians...no libertarian supports a police state, period.

    Platform | Libertarian Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Keynesianism doesnt lead to statism that's a lot of voodoo and looking at the present world, where every society employs a version of Keynesianism should make that apparent
    Why is Britain banning self-defense (the most fundamental human right)?

    Why is the US banning smoking?

    Why is London canvased by security cameras?

    Why does the US ban drugs at all?

    Why do we have a Patriot Act?

    ---

    Looking at the present world, it is abundantly clear that Keynesian governments work to increase their own power, as is obvious in both the US and the UK.

    The fact that Americans are rapidly losing our freedoms at the same time as we are "stimulating" our economy to death is no coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont have a clue what you're going on about ice cream.
    Re-read my metaphor, but substitute social programs for ice cream.

  5. #25
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You're minarchists, and I don't think that will work either.
    Tis a matter of perspective...Francisco Franco called his Republican enemies anarchists, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not sure how you're defining statism here, but as far as I can tell, government of any sort pretty much trends toward statism automatically. Also, large populations encorage statism. So does advanced technology. All of these things are related to each other, by the way.
    Statism = centralization of power over all parts of life

    Governments always encourage statism, because politicians naturally desire power (or else they wouldn't be politicians).

    Large populations do not encourage statism, because large populations are far more difficult to control. Every major city has a black market for illegal goods and services, for instance. In China, regulations are bypassed/ignored more than they are followed, by every level of government.

    Technology works both ways...cameras allow them to monitor citizens 24/7 (Britain), yet the internet allows them to organize independent of the government, as seen recently in Iran.

  6. #26
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Tis a matter of perspective...Francisco Franco called his Republican enemies anarchists, after all.
    It shoudn't be. We should have a definition for these things. I call a libertarian a minarchist because libertarians seek to have the smallest government they think possible/necessary, but do not intend to get rid of it completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Statism = centralization of power over all parts of life
    What do you think about the idea of government becoming larger without becoming more centralized?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Governments always encourage statism, because politicians naturally desire power (or else they wouldn't be politicians).
    From the perspective of conflict theory, everyone desires more power or at least resources, and encourages an increase in whatever it is that they use as their means. So it's not really limited to politicians, per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Large populations do not encourage statism, because large populations are far more difficult to control. Every major city has a black market for illegal goods and services, for instance. In China, regulations are bypassed/ignored more than they are followed, by every level of government.
    But they do increase the size of government, as larger government is necessary to administer more people. And it isn't a simple one-to-one growth rate, there are certain thresholds of population that require things to radically change. Hence the transtion of band, to tribe, to chiefdom, to state, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Technology works both ways...cameras allow them to monitor citizens 24/7 (Britain), yet the internet allows them to organize independent of the government, as seen recently in Iran.
    But basically, the technological development we have today is only possible through many other factors. Likely a small population and a simple government would never have allowed us to have such advanced technology.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #27
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It shoudn't be. We should have a definition for these things. I call a libertarian a minarchist because libertarians seek to have the smallest government they think possible/necessary, but do not intend to get rid of it completely.
    I agree that there needs to be concrete definitions for certain words, but I'll leave that to greater minds than my own.

    Minarchist works..haven't heard it before, is catchy and to the point!

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What do you think about the idea of government becoming larger without becoming more centralized?
    A large, heavily decentralized government is effectively many smaller governments working together, and thus is preferable.

    In other words, a centralized global government would be horribly inefficient at addressing the needs of each region under its control.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    From the perspective of conflict theory, everyone desires more power or at least resources, and encourages an increase in whatever it is that they use as their means. So it's not really limited to politicians, per se.
    True, hence the fundamental need for government...to protect us from ourselves

    If the government is run by criminal minds...well, you get Zimbabwe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But they do increase the size of government, as larger government is necessary to administer more people. And it isn't a simple one-to-one growth rate, there are certain thresholds of population that require things to radically change. Hence the transtion of band, to tribe, to chiefdom, to state, etc...
    While this is no doubt true, a tribal chief has far more power over each individual member of the tribe, than does a modern President/PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But basically, the technological development we have today is only possible through many other factors. Likely a small population and a simple government would never have allowed us to have such advanced technology.
    I would argue that the technology itself has been the most important driving force behind advancement, creating a snowball effect.

    The invention of farming enabled the development of civilization as we know it. As farming techniques improved, it enabled some humans to purse non-agricultural activities, thus the development of mining and smelting, bringing on the copper, bronze, and iron ages.

    With metal tools and animal domestication, agriculture took off, and before long the first empires were born.

    Today, we have finally reach a point where the vast majority of the human population no longer needs to produce food, and thus the rate of technological innovation has soared to unimaginable levels.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Tis a matter of perspective...Francisco Franco called his Republican enemies anarchists, after all.
    Many of them were anarchists; although I believe Communist was more commonly used - which still would've been true in a way.

  9. #29
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Libertarians want a massive police state to take care of the poor or kill the surplus wage earners
    Wow, dude. You're out of your goddamn mind.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #30
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Wow, dude. You're out of your goddamn mind.
    I wonder if we're from the same dimension, sometimes.

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