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  1. #71
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    ^
    1.) The criticism's of Kleck's work by Hemenway (and vice versa) was usually (if not always) made on the basis of contemporary knowledge and accepted methodology, not any procedural revolutions in the field; I'm saying that there was never an instance during the research paradigm in which the individual articles came out (not later after methodological advances which may or may not have occurred) where a retraction had to be made. In short, Hemenway was effectively accusing Kleck (and vice-versa) of "blatantly defective" work by contemporary standards, not outdated or obsolete research.

    2.) The article in question remains a research endeavor whose methodology is still in dispute, has yet to be "reproduced," and whose "objectivity" is no more respectable than that of Kleck (look up Branas's connections to the Joyce Foundation). Meanwhile, Kleck's survey results are consistent with most works in the field and his methodology was-reluctantly-vouched for by luminaries in the field of criminology.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 07-06-2010 at 12:45 AM. Reason: more to add

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post


    Americans, I love you, but you are crazy gun toting nutjobs. I think the plan is fantastic. I don't think its going to be a silver bullet solution ( ) but its going to help.

    And still more argument against the guns as self-defense argument:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MX3QtumSuE&feature=PlayList&p=AC56E7560FF 6051C&playnext_from=PL&index=3"]If you only had a gun - part 1[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxNRLMWkjc8&feature=PlayList&p=AC56E7560FF 6051C&playnext_from=PL&index=2"]If you only had a gun - part 2[/YOUTUBE]
    Very interesting stuff. I've only recently researched and learned about this kind of thing. I am not a gun-owner and don't feel a need for one where I live.

    However, that video does not represent the kind of thing I've always imagined having a weapon would help with.

    In a situation like that, the armed victim is pretty much screwed. His gun is holstered and he doesn't know what to expect or when. The gunman is mentally prepared and has his gun out - and he expects one of the students to be armed - and he just so happens to want to kill everybody. So the gun wouldn't do much good in a situation like that. That doesn't mean it's useless. It does show people that they are not as useful as they think, though.

    I'd like to see reports on how often they have a positive effect for the carrier versus a negative one. I can't imagine accidentally shooting my wife, I could never be that stupid. If you live with other people, you have to make sure you know where they are. And I wouldn't go walking through the house looking for trouble, either. I'd lock myself in a room and if someone tried to break in, I'd say that I was armed and if they enter, I will shoot them.
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #73
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    There is no point in arguing the pros and cons of guns, for guns are embedded in a culture.

    And one country has a gun culture and mine, for instance, doesn't.

    And the reason we have two difference cultures is that we have two quite different histories.

    So to understand gun culture we first need to understand comparative history, otherwise we are just spinning our wheels in useless argument.

    But if we deny our own history in the interests of the Revolution, then we are likely to deny the history of other countries.

    This is cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

    And if we are overwhelmingly powerful it leads to cutting the noses and ears off millions of less powerful villagers and tribal people.

    So if we don't understand ourselves, we won't understand others and we will kill them in the millions.

  4. #74
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucrativeSid View Post
    I'd like to see reports on how often they have a positive effect for the carrier versus a negative one. I can't imagine accidentally shooting my wife, I could never be that stupid. If you live with other people, you have to make sure you know where they are. And I wouldn't go walking through the house looking for trouble, either. I'd lock myself in a room and if someone tried to break in, I'd say that I was armed and if they enter, I will shoot them.
    Everyone likes to say they wouldn't be stupid, wouldn't screw up, including the people in that report. But really, all of the experts I've ever heard from say that most people don't have the slightest clue how to use guns in a dangerous situation. The video of the guy nearly shooting a baby in the head was a good example.

    I swear people might actually be a lesser danger to themselves and others if they used a freakin' melee weapon.
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Everyone likes to say they wouldn't be stupid, wouldn't screw up, including the people in that report. But really, all of the experts I've ever heard from say that most people don't have the slightest clue how to use guns in a dangerous situation. The video of the guy nearly shooting a baby in the head was a good example.

    I swear people might actually be a lesser danger to themselves and others if they used a freakin' melee weapon.
    Probably, and I don't disagree at all. But you do have to consider why you've heard from those particular experts in the first place and if they're really in the majority. People share the facts they think make their own cases and leave the rest out. Isn't it hard to find unbiased and accurately portrayed information when it comes to a hot topic like this? Does a big TV station have an agenda?

    Well, I'm just a skeptic, but I don't actually disagree.
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    Chicago Mayors New Gun Proposal

    If this happens Chicago will prove to everyone why this is a horrible idea. I assure you Chicago would become the nations worst place to live. With too many crimes and no one but the police able to defend others from criminals who dont care about gun laws. Thank you Mayor Daley, your officially a fucktard.
    It works in Canada.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    It works in Canada.
    And it works in Oz.

    We have had not one gun massacre since we banned guns, while we keep on reading in our newspapers of gun massacres over there on a regular basis.

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