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  1. #41
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    Don't you know they cook the books?
    Thank you for bringing that up

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I reckon that should read carrying a gun while stupid increases your chances of being shot and killed.

    Its a little like suggesting that cars cause reckless driving.
    Thank you for the excellent analogy Lark, it hits the nail on the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    What they won't face is that it is guns and God. G&G.

    Even their President, Barack Obama, has said he is sick of guns and God.

    Guns and God go together like love and marriage, a horse and carriage.

    Like God, guns are beyond evidence, beyond reason. Guns, like God, are articles of faith.

    Guns reveal the Yankee character in all its touching belief in freedom.

    From the OK Corral to the slaughter of three million Vietnamese, yes, one point one million combatants and two million civilians, it's the man with the gun.

    The gun maketh the man.

    Without a gun a Yankee is naked, revealed as a treacherous revolutionary fit only for the gallows.

    God gave the fig leaf to Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness. But to the Yankees, He gave the gun.

    And every time they lust for a gun, they worship Him.
    Victor, that is really really disturbing. And ridiculous. Ask all the atheist Gun owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post


    Americans, I love you, but you are crazy gun toting nutjobs. I think the plan is fantastic. I don't think its going to be a silver bullet solution ( ) but its going to help.
    It would help if the only people who possessed firearms had them legally, which many do not. This law hurts people who abide by it, not criminals.
    There are too many guns in circulation here anyways to ban them. Guns do not kill people, people kill people, Our crime rates would just shift even if guns where made illegal, but they would not lessen.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    chicago has had a gun ban (we can't even conceal and carry legally) for the past 20 or so years it did not help with the murder rate if anything it made the murder rate go up, because we have a bunch of gangs in this city and yes most of the crime happens on the southside, but still this is why i don't agree with it. We can't even have a conceal and carry. this is a city that when they ban something people find ways to get it in. take spray paint for example, that's been banned yet their's still new graffiti everyday. it's not an argument of whether or not guns are bad, it's a matter of protection.say what you want, and I will never own a gun, provided i never have to live in an unsafe neighborhood. I just think it's the individual's right it's in our constitution. I just think this law is going to put guns into the wrong hands. its not like we ahve an ocean dividing us from other states.
    I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't either and I live in the Chicago area.

    Fewer guns = less homicide and accidental deaths/shootings. Simple.
    This law only effects people who follow the law. Not people who already aren't. It just takes away someone's ability to defend themselves.


    Also - When I visited an agency for relocation of Domestic Violence Victims they suggested to some of their clients to purchase and learn how to use handguns properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  2. #42

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    Guts, Guns and God, made America great, lets keep them all

  3. #43
    Member Red October's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So it seems the USA Government is not a liberal democratic Government based on the limitation of power.

    And so as some kind of compensatory fantasy you have armed thugs overseeing the Government of the USA.

    This is simply the wildest fantasy. And it is a compensatory fantasy of the powerless. And it plainly doesn't work.

    It has a smell about it. And it smells of ressentiment and fantasy. It is simply fantastic - far too fantastic to believe.
    Are you really that blind of history? Is the preservation of freedom and faith in the individual really such a foreign concept to you? Do you really have trouble understanding what is meant by watching the watchers?

    The question of who watchers the watchers has been around since ancient times. The difference between the US and other governments is we recognize the need for this. Europe has had a history of getting trapped with pathetic excuses for governments. These shameless governments don't serve the people. From absolute monarchies to fascism and communism, European nations have had a bad share of government. The US started as a revolution against such governments and preventing one from taking hold was a top priority.

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

    Latin for who will guard the guards, or who will watch the watchers. It is a question first posed in Plato's Republic. The American answer is the people watch the people. Why? Because the government is supposed to serve and preserve the freedom of the people. Except since power does corrupt and mankind is fallible, the watchers too, need a watcher. Which will be the people they watch in turn. To even further preserve freedom we have separation of power, various groups of the watchers watch over other watchers. Its all checks and balances.

    Its not a fantasy, its a reality. This right to bear arms was a reality during the American revolution. Our country owes its existence to this principle, and to deny it would possibly deny its preservation. We have the right to bear arms so that if some morally bankrupt communist/fascist/monarchist government takes over the American people could overthrow it. Just as the American people overthrew one in the revolution. We make sure the government serves the people and preserves their freedom, not the other way around.

    YouTube - Michael Savage - Why We Need To Get Armed!

    Michael Savage lives in one of the most sickeningly liberal city in the country. He even got his PhD from a sickeningly liberal university, University of California at Berkeley. He has seen all sides of the political spectrum.

    This video captures the essence of what I am saying. The devil isn't in the details of this video. Just listen, feel, and understand why so many want to keep our right to weapons. It comes from a people willing to fight back at communism and unjust rule. One other tidbit, I live in the Chicago area. I'm a 25-30 minute train ride from the heart of the city and hope to live there after college. I don't want that city to be stripped of the second amendment by the time I get there.

  4. #44
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    Thumbs down Beware of foreigners bearing the gift of the gun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Red October View Post
    Is the preservation of freedom and faith in the individual really such a foreign concept to you?
    Yes, it is a foreign concept, just as you are a foreigner.

    For we know that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so we have developed the institution of liberal democracy to limit the power of the individual.

    So rather than have faith in corrupt individuals we support the institution of liberal democracy.

    And liberal democracy grew out of the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th Centuries and it works, along with science and modern medicine.

    Whereas your faith in the individual grew out of the individual interpretation of the Bible, and is essentially a religious faith.

    So you put your faith in God and guns, while we trust reason.

    You are as foreign to us as a Martian. You are foreign to the civilized world. And like Greeks, you come bearing gifts - the gift of the gun.

    But we heed the Trojans from so long ago, who warned, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts".

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For we know that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so we have developed the institution of liberal democracy to limit the power of the individual.
    This is all you needed to say to articulate that garbage. The sole focus of a government to make an individual powerless is an awful idea. Unchecked governmental power is a terrible idea, I can't believe your advocating that. The terror caused by such governments throughout history have always and will always outweigh anything produced by a government for the people. I'm sure you would have a great time getting along with Hitler and Stalin. Have fun when you get another round of genocidal dictatorships.

  6. #46
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    Smile The Most Powerful Man in the World or Beautiful Julia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red October View Post
    This is all you needed to say to articulate that garbage. The sole focus of a government to make an individual powerless is an awful idea. Unchecked governmental power is a terrible idea, I can't believe your advocating that. The terror caused by such governments throughout history have always and will always outweigh anything produced by a government for the people. I'm sure you would have a great time getting along with Hitler and Stalin. Have fun when you get another round of genocidal dictatorships.
    This shows no understanding of liberal democracy, its history or practice.

    This understandable as you live in a one party State with two parties of business.

    So you cling to the fantasy of God and guns.

    Why not visit us and see liberal democracy in action?

    I will personally introduce you to our Prime Minister, Julia Gillard. She is a publicly professing atheist, who will have no truck with God or guns.

    Just click on -
    http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-conten...ia_gillard.jpg

    And of course to ensure Julia does not become our dictator, the office of Prime Minister is not even mentioned in our Constitution.

    And quite unlike your individually powerful President, "the most powerful man in the world", our Constitution mandates that Julia can never become our Commander-in-Chief.

    And unlike your Presidency, our Constitution also mandates that Julia can never become our Head of State.

    And our Constitution further stipulates that Julia can never become our Sovereign.

    And we don't even elect Julia to the office of Prime Minister, we only elect her to be a local member of Parliament.

    No, you have "the most powerful man in the world" in your face every day, while we have beautiful Julia.

  7. #47
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    Our constitution has checks and balances, but whats also necessary is the check on the government as a whole. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? For us, the people. You already said your government exists to limit the freedom of the people. That is a fundamental difference and flaw.

  8. #48
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    Smile Power and Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Red October View Post
    You already said your government exists to limit the freedom of the people.
    I would never say that, for the very purpose of our liberal democracy is maximise freedom while limiting power.

    While the very purpose of your Republic is to maximise power, not only in the USA, but the whole of the Western hemisphere under your Munroe Doctrine.

    And not content to dominate your Western hemisphere, you are seeking to dominate the Eastern hemisphere as well.

    Your Republic maximises power and limits freedom, while our liberal democracy maximises freedom and limits power.

  9. #49
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    clearly we disagree on what is an is not reputable research etc..
    Apparently, we also disagree about what are and are not appropriate control variables and what constitutes a spurious association on this matter....details which you have refrained from giving a personal opinion on. Do you disagree that the variables I mentioned are appropriate (and obvious) control variables for a study seeking to prove that guns decrease the personal safety of gun-owners, or for that matter with the simple truth that correlation does not necessarily equal causation?

    I'm asking you for your personal judgment on these questions, not a contest regarding who has better access to on-line journal archives (though I would advise you that more recent studies with blatantly defective methodology do not render older studies with sounder methodologies obsolete).

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    (though I would advise you that more recent studies with blatantly defective methodology do not render older studies with sounder methodologies obsolete).
    If the methodology is blatantly defective as you say - then where is the retraction? It really isn't that hard to get one - so if the criticism of science utilized in the study is valid and it's been out since 2008 I really don't understand why this guy and others like him haven't requested a retraction of the article on that basis...

    Moreover I'm curious how you formed your opinions on the data actually collected in the study.... did you read the experimental/data section for yourself or are you simply regurgitating the opinion of some professor ranting on the internet? Again.. I find it strange that he has such serious questions regarding the validity of the science in the study and yet he has not submitted a formal request for a retraction of the article based on his concerns..

    So as I said before - we clearly disagree on what is and is not a reliable resource thus we have for quite some time now been at an impasse in this conversation...

    edit: moreover discussing my opinion on this matter would require that we actually agree on what does and does not constitute valid science - which we cannot - therefore there is no point in discussing my opinion (as far as I'm concerned)... as I already have a fairly good idea what the conversation will degenerate into.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

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