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  1. #31
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    therefore I trust that a journal article from 2008 free of retractions is scientifically sound as there are rigorous review processes required to publish in peer reviewed scientific journals but any dodo can make claims on an internet website..
    :rolli:

    The professor who authored that critique has also published in peer-reviewed journals, ones which are directly related to the field, as any cursory examination would reveal:

    Gary Kleck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Gary Kleck : Florida State University College of Criminology & Criminal Justice

    If you had actually read the critique, you would have noticed that it criticizes the study on the basis that it is misleading and demonstrates only a spurious association in a small and non-representative sample that fails to control for something as simple and obvious as criminal records-which, by the way, the majority of shooting victims posses, a fact that no new information in that study contradicts. Another control variable that is unaccounted for is whether crime victims actually tried to defend themselves with their fire-arms, a variable which could then be compared to crime victims without fire-arms.

    In short, that study is useless, containing no information that was not already widely known and indicating only that people with guns are more likely to be involved in dangerous situations-hardly surprising if someone is motivated to buy a gun for self-defense or for criminal purposes.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 07-02-2010 at 09:49 PM. Reason: word choice

  2. #32
    Member Red October's Avatar
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    I can't believe only one of you I skimmed across understands why we have a 2nd amendment. It doesn't exist because you can defend yourself from a violent armed robbery, its just a side perk. The real reason we have the right to bare arms is because of the nature of the United States government. The US government serves the people. The people don't serve the government. Government does watch over us, but even the watchers need a watcher. Which is the people they are supposed to serve watch over them as well. Neither the government or the people go unchecked.

    This is why the case of the North Carolina congressman being rude to that student is despicable. That man is a civil servant, he works for that student. No business that wants to be in business treats their clients like shit, and the government shouldn't be exempt from this practice. People in government are held to a lot higher standards of moral character, its the nature of their work.

    Enough of that issue. Anyhow, the people are supposed to watch over the government. Why should we be able to have assault rifles? So if some Fascist/Marxist/Anything extreme takes over we are armed well enough to overthrow it. It doesn't matter what studies say about gun violence. What matters is that the watchers of the government can keep the government from going too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowOfTheNight View Post
    The best argument for supporting private firearm ownership:

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

    -Thomas Jefferson

    But yeah, gun control arguments on the internet never go anywhere and usually degenerate into pointless bickering.
    Right on the spot. I usually sit out on political debates for this reason. I'll try and suck in information and viewpoints, but I try not too comment. Skimming around I didn't see enough views like this, maybe I missed them, so I felt I should throw mine in. Don't be surprised if I don't respond to posts. I'm very prone to not caring about debates or changing my opinion overnight.

  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Americans, I love you, but you are crazy gun toting nutjobs. I think the plan is fantastic. I don't think its going to be a silver bullet solution ( ) but its going to help.

    And still more argument against the guns as self-defense argument:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MX3QtumSuE&feature=PlayList&p=AC56E7560FF 6051C&playnext_from=PL&index=3"]If you only had a gun - part 1[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxNRLMWkjc8&feature=PlayList&p=AC56E7560FF 6051C&playnext_from=PL&index=2"]If you only had a gun - part 2[/YOUTUBE]
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #34
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red October View Post
    The real reason we have the right to bare arms is because of the nature of the United States government.
    So it seems the USA Government is not a liberal democratic Government based on the limitation of power.

    And so as some kind of compensatory fantasy you have armed thugs overseeing the Government of the USA.

    This is simply the wildest fantasy. And it is a compensatory fantasy of the powerless. And it plainly doesn't work.

    It has a smell about it. And it smells of ressentiment and fantasy. It is simply fantastic - far too fantastic to believe.

  5. #35
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    Americans, I love you, but you are crazy gun toting nutjobs. I think the plan is fantastic.
    How about providing something more than what amounts to anecdotal evidence to back up that last contention?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    :rolli:

    The professor who authored that critique has also published in peer-reviewed journals, ones which are directly related to the field, as any cursory examination would reveal:

    Gary Kleck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Gary Kleck : Florida State University College of Criminology & Criminal Justice

    If you had actually read the critique, you would have noticed that it criticizes the study on the basis that it is misleading and demonstrates only a spurious association in a small and non-representative sample that fails to control for something as simple and obvious as criminal records-which, by the way, the majority of shooting victims posses, a fact that no new information in that study contradicts. Another control variable that is unaccounted for is whether crime victims actually tried to defend themselves with their fire-arms, a variable which could then be compared to crime victims without fire-arms.

    In short, that study is useless, containing no information that was not already widely known and indicating only that people with guns are more likely to be involved in dangerous situations-hardly surprising if someone is motivated to buy a gun for self-defense or for criminal purposes.
    Clearly what I'm saying is not making sense to you...
    I read the critique and I disagree with him as clearly the reviewers of the article do as well since they have not retracted the journal yet...

    This guy is a professor thus he should know that if he has a problem with the science in someone's article it is really easy to just request a retraction. When we find errors in someone's science in my lab that is exactly what we do... So, again I have to ask, I wonder why he hasn't.... strange...

    I read the article - I know who the guy is and I'm not impressed.. he's just a professor that for some reason would rather rant on internet websites in lieu of actually following the appropriate channels to request a retraction of an article with what he views as sub par science... another possibility is he already attempted that and a panel of reviewers disagreed with him and thus dismissed his claims that the science in the article is flawed... and now he is having a temper tantrum via a lobbyist website on the internet...

    You'll have to excuse my reservations about a "scientist" that behaves that way - but since I actually am a scientist as well I personally find that behavior odd as I have never seen anyone resort to personal attacks on internet websites rather than simply reporting the bad science via the appropriate channels and getting a retraction of the offending article...

    so again.. clearly we disagree on what is an is not reputable research etc..
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

  7. #37
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post


    Americans, I love you, but you are crazy gun toting nutjobs. I think the plan is fantastic. I don't think its going to be a silver bullet solution ( ) but its going to help.

    And still more argument against the guns as self-defense argument:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MX3QtumSuE&feature=PlayList&p=AC56E7560FF 6051C&playnext_from=PL&index=3"]If you only had a gun - part 1[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxNRLMWkjc8&feature=PlayList&p=AC56E7560FF 6051C&playnext_from=PL&index=2"]If you only had a gun - part 2[/YOUTUBE]

    My answer to this problem: Be the one that comes into the room with a gun.

  8. #38
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    chicago has had a gun ban (we can't even conceal and carry legally) for the past 20 or so years it did not help with the murder rate if anything it made the murder rate go up, because we have a bunch of gangs in this city and yes most of the crime happens on the southside, but still this is why i don't agree with it. We can't even have a conceal and carry. this is a city that when they ban something people find ways to get it in. take spray paint for example, that's been banned yet their's still new graffiti everyday. it's not an argument of whether or not guns are bad, it's a matter of protection.say what you want, and I will never own a gun, provided i never have to live in an unsafe neighborhood. I just think it's the individual's right it's in our constitution. I just think this law is going to put guns into the wrong hands. its not like we ahve an ocean dividing us from other states.

  9. #39
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I don't see the problem with the proposed handgun laws.
    I don't either and I live in the Chicago area.

    Fewer guns = less homicide and accidental deaths/shootings. Simple.

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  10. #40
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post


    Americans, I love you, but you are crazy gun toting nutjobs.
    I think it has something to do with A) The British B) General lawlessness in the pioneer days and C) Tension between immigrated Europeans and Native Americans.

    That was more than 100 - 150 years ago.

    Horribly outdated laws, thinking, etc.

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