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  1. #11
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    without some extensive training I have a hard time believing that the average citizen with a gun will accomplish much more than getting themselves and their family members shot with their own gun(s) during a home invasion or similar such events... For most people I think feeling safe is better than actually being safe.. nobody wants to undertake any of the necessary precautions to really build a safer society - that takes too much money and work...
    Countless studies have demonstrated otherwise, and most defensive uses of guns do not even result in a shot being fired. You are allowing your intuition to take the place of empiricism, without any apparent basis for a counter-factual argument beyond your personal prejudices.

  2. #12
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    NYC adopted strict gun control laws, and their homicide and crime rates dropped to record lows...
    Don't you know they cook the books?
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Countless studies have demonstrated otherwise, and most defensive uses of guns do not even result in a shot being fired. You are allowing your intuition to take the place of empiricism, without any apparent basis for a counter-factual argument beyond your personal prejudices.
    Actually my intuition has nothing to do with it.. if you're going to claim expertise how about actually having some real life experience or maybe even some links to back it up...

    I'll go first
    - Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

    it seems like you are allowing yourself to prejudge someone you don't even know and using that to analyze what's been said by that person (me) rather than looking at the facts of the statements and actually looking them up yourself.

    I find it's best not to have strong opinions about subjects in which you have no personal experience or advanced knowledge - that's just my two cents but still it seems you might want to consider that approach in the future..
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I reckon that should read carrying a gun while stupid increases your chances of being shot and killed.

    Its a little like suggesting that cars cause reckless driving.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I reckon that should read carrying a gun while stupid increases your chances of being shot and killed.

    Its a little like suggesting that cars cause reckless driving.
    Well if my original post is read in this thread it can be seen that this was my point exactly... most people who carry a gun / have a gun in their home are not properly trained... and by properly trained I don't mean you go to the range and do some target practice or trap shooting once a week or whatever - but actually trained on using a gun in a self defense situation...

    There is a huge difference between shooting a gun at a range where there are designated areas etc and actually having to shoot and kill a real life person in a life threatening situation... it is not as easy as many might think to just shoot someone dead.. Personally I think very extensive training should be required before people are allowed to carry concealed firearms or keep loaded weapons in their homes.. You do after all need a license to drive a car - I imagine we'd see a sharp increase in really bad accidents if anyone who could see over the steering wheel was able to drive with no regulation put in place to train them or assess their mental/physical abilities to accomplish the task - your logic is flawed.

    "Kellermann states that as an emergency room doctor, he noted that the number of gunowners injured by their own gun or that of a family member seemed to greatly outnumber the number of intruders shot by the gun of a homeowner, and therefore he determined to study whether or not this was in fact true." - Arthur Kellermann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I personally observed similar statistics as a medical transport pilot. The average american citizen is "stupid" as far as gun training is concerned... and again there are actual scientific studies to back this observation up - Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

    not too many soldiers or cops get shot with their own gun - I wonder why that is...
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

  6. #16
    Oberon
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    Y'know... there are places in the world where there are a lot of guns, and there are places in the world where there are no guns. I think we should all live in the places that have the gun laws we want.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Y'know... there are places in the world where there are a lot of guns, and there are places in the world where there are no guns. I think we should all live in the places that have the gun laws we want.
    If only that were possible - but currently they don't allow people to simply move from one country to another on the basis of disliking the laws of your home land. I'm sure there are plenty of people in 3rd world countries that would love to leave their current lives behind and migrate to Europe or the USA - too bad for them the immigration laws makes it nearly impossible for large numbers of them to accomplish this... thus we are all left dealing with the good and the bad of our respective countries. Even dual citizenship isn't all it's cracked up to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

  8. #18
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    And I respond with:

    National Academy and Gun Control

    and

    Gun bans don't work - Washington Times

    These extensive studies were undertaken by people motivated to support gun control laws.

    Of course, its possible that more guns make everyone safer except the people who actually own the guns...that's an interesting possibility. An even bigger possibility is that people motivated to buy guns for self-defense are more likely to be in dangerous situations, and that people associated with criminal elements are likely to own guns (legally or illegally), skewing the numbers.

  9. #19
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    I don't see the problem with the proposed handgun laws.

    Except for "no going outside" and the limitation on gun ranges. Those seem fairly stupid.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    And I respond with:

    National Academy and Gun Control

    and

    Gun bans don't work - Washington Times

    These extensive studies were undertaken by people motivated to support gun control laws.

    Of course, its possible that more guns make everyone safer except the people who actually own the guns...that's an interesting possibility. An even bigger possibility is that people motivated to buy guns for self-defense are more likely to be in dangerous situations, and that people associated with criminal elements are likely to own guns (legally or illegally), skewing the numbers.
    "The academy, however, should believe its own findings." - from your own reference - National Academy and Gun Control <------------- This is a random opinion of someone about what the academy should believe not what the academy actually believes...

    This is a more complete excerpt from the Academy's actual findings (context is always so important)

    "Nevertheless, many of the shortcomings described in this report stem from the lack of reliable data itself rather than the weakness of methods. In some instances—firearms violence prevention, for example—there are no data at all. Even the best methods cannot overcome inadequate data and, because the lack of relevant data colors much of the literature" - Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review

    The study I quoted in a post above actually post dates this finding by the National Academy of sciences and utilizes their suggestions in data collection.. it was a 2008 study in the American journal of public health - Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

    thus the newest evidence suggests that gun ownership and attempted use in defense leads to an increased risk in actually getting shot..

    (and that is how one accurately researches a topic.. dates, times, and full context are always important.)
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

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