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Thread: Guns!

  1. #51
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Neither do I, nor do I understand the supposedly "Enlightened" mindset that would typify an entire nation by a few fringe individuals who occupy a "violent gun culture".
    who did this?

    i find it fascinating how australia and the US have such different views on guns, as both countries share many of the same cultural values. i never claimed to be enlightened; i said that i think australian gun laws are reasonable.



    oberon - self defense is legal in australia, but there is a reasonable/proportionate criteria.

    you just can't cite self defense as being a reason to own a firearm. if you really wanted one for self defense you could go join a firearms sporting club and cite that as a reason. would take a bit more time/effort, but i don't see that as being necessarily a bad thing - kind of like a cooling off period. would also mean you're forced to associate with people who presumably already know how to use them safely etc.

    i see most americans justify having a gun at home on the grounds of protecting one's family rather than defending oneself from the government.

    are people honestly that afraid of home invasion? this isn't me being provocative - it's a genuine question.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    are people honestly that afraid of home invasion? this isn't me being provocative - it's a genuine question.
    post 9/11, Americans are afraid of their own goddamn shadow. Pre 9/11 seems to be pretty much the same except you could make jokes about it.

    If the US could develop the ability to react to bad things in a reasonable way and not by losing their collective shit then I'd feel much better with 2nd amendment rights.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  3. #53
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    oberon - self defense is legal in australia, but there is a reasonable/proportionate criteria.
    There is also a reasonable/proportionate criteria in the United States, particularly if you are male.

    you just can't cite self defense as being a reason to own a firearm. if you really wanted one for self defense you could go join a firearms sporting club and cite that as a reason. would take a bit more time/effort, but i don't see that as being necessarily a bad thing - kind of like a cooling off period. would also mean you're forced to associate with people who presumably already know how to use them safely etc.
    A number of states require taking a class (to get licensed) to be able to carry a handgun.

    How can you not cite self-defense as a reason to own a firearm, though? If someone broke into my house (which has happened on multiple occasions), I would feel much more comfortable standing at the end of the hall with a shotgun than preparing myself for a knife fight.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #54
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Well - I don't own a firearm, but I totally sleep better at night knowing that a lot of responsible people do. A few apartments ago I decided to move after hearing .22 rounds hit my wall while I was in the living room, and I lived in a small town with a virtually low crime rate. I think no matter how it's argued, it's too late in the game to take guns off the market in the U.S. for whatever reason because they are so wildy available. Even if they where deemed illegal, they would still be relatively easy to obtain.

    and personally I hear more nutty statements from anti-firearm supporters than from responsible gun owners.
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    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  5. #55
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    the rationale for the law in australia is simple: guns are very dangerous so we should make it difficult for people to own them. clearly, culturally and constitutionally this notion doesn't fly in the US, but it does here. as I mentioned above, i find this dichotomy fascinating.

    the home invasion stuff is interesting to me - and this is where i think there is a very different mindset about guns in australia. i can't speak for other australians, but if I had a gun in my house i would worry that in the event of a home invasion i could be overpowered and they'd end up using the gun on me, or that if the intruder saw me with a gun they would become more aggressive/violent than they would ordinarily. having a gun in my house would not make me feel safer - it would make me feel paranoid - i don't want to feel paranoid. i also don’t think about home invasion or random people with guns hurting me - i do lock my doors, but it's not something i consciously worry about often enough to want to procure some weapons for just in case.

  6. #56
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    are people honestly that afraid of home invasion? this isn't me being provocative - it's a genuine question.
    1.) Guns were used for self-defense in the United States about 2.5 million times per year from 1988-1993; its not a matter of paranoia, its a matter of reasonable precaution.

    2.) Its much easier for a criminal to overpower someone with a knife or baseball bat than it is to overpower a victim with a gun.

    3.) On the matter of shooting clubs, etc., most hunters, hobbyists, and collectors would rather not be forced to spend a lot more money and spend weeks worth of headaches dealing with an apparently hostile bureaucracy each time they want to buy a gun.

    4.) The armed robbery, unarmed robbery, assault, and kidnapping rates increased substantially after Australia instituted draconian anti-gun laws. I wouldn't be surprised if property crimes also increased substantially.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) Guns were used for self-defense in the United States about 2.5 million times per year from 1988-1993; its not a matter of paranoia, its a matter of reasonable precaution.

    2.) Its much easier for a criminal to overpower someone with a knife or baseball bat than it is to overpower a victim with a gun.

    3.) On the matter of shooting clubs, etc., most hunters, hobbyists, and collectors would rather not be forced to spend a lot more money and spend weeks worth of headaches dealing with an apparently hostile bureaucracy each time they want to buy a gun.

    4.) The armed robbery, unarmed robbery, assault, and kidnapping rates increased substantially after Australia instituted draconian anti-gun laws. I wouldn't be surprised if property crimes also increased substantially.
    Sources please.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  8. #58
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    i can't speak for other australians, but if I had a gun in my house i would worry that in the event of a home invasion i could be overpowered and they'd end up using the gun on me, or that if the intruder saw me with a gun they would become more aggressive/violent than they would ordinarily.
    Americans, are a bit more aggressive/violent of a people than Australians from my knowledge. Basically, your sentiment, is less common here than it is in your country. We like to think that we'll be perfect in a crisis situation, and take out the intruder. That isn't always that untrue.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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  10. #60
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    lowtech redneck where are you getting your australian data from?! i suggest you check out the australian institute of criminology's data if you're truly interested.

    here's a snapshot of the robbery stats

    Robbery victims from 1995 to 2007 (number per month)




    Homicide victim statistics
    The number of homicide victims has declined steadily at a rate similar to that of homicide incidents. There were 266 victims in 2006-07, and 351 victims in 1990-91.

    Victimisation rate from 1989-90 to 2006-07, by sex (per 100,000 per year)



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