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Thread: Guns!

  1. #31
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    In regards to the "nuts" that are concerned about the government taking away their ability to defend themselves. That isn't really as crazy as it sounds. Look at the ludicrous laws that have been passed to limit firearms sale/possession already such as the "assault weapons" ban and bans on weapons like sawed off shotguns and maximum magazine capacities. If the government takes weapons away it's going to do it slowly. Americans really don't -do anything- about anything the government does. We get pissed and bitch and then go back to watching t.v.
    If you're really concerned about the government you should speak out against the police state that's been put in place to combat the war on drugs and the overzealousness of police officers and paramilitary in our country.

    Most gun nuts, however, praise the police who have full rights to shoot people they deem "suspicious" without any sort of repercussion.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  2. #32
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    I'm all for preserving U.S. citizens' rights to carry guns. Many people think that violent crimes are highly correlated with the availability of guns, but that's simply not the case. If anything, violent crimes are more correlated with how indigent the citizens are and what other cultural factors encourage them to commit crimes. Guns are merely a tool people use to carry it out, even though guns are a symbol used by certain cultures. If you have an impoverished population with a violent culture that is more prone to commit crimes, chances are they'll find some means regardless of whether they have access to guns.

    The U.S. has a higher non-gun murder rate than many European country's total murder rates. On the other hand, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Mexico have non-gun murder rates in excess of our total murder rate.
    2. Historical Ignorance and the Anti-Gun Crusade
    Likewise, historical evidence refutes attributing differential international violence rates to differences in gun laws rather than to socio-institutional and cultural differences. People who attribute low violence rates in Europe to banning guns are apparently unaware that low rates long preceded the gun bans.[139] In fact, stringent gun laws first appeared in the United States, not Europe--despite which, high American crime rates persisted and grew.[140] Ever-growing violence in various American states from the 1810s on led those states to pioneer ever-more-severe gun controls.[141] But in Europe, where violence was falling, or was not even deemed an important problem, gun controls varied from lax to non-existent. During the 19th century in England, for instance, crime fell from its high in the late 1700s to its idyllic low in the early 1900s--yet the only gun control was that police could not carry guns.[142]
    In considering reasons for the historical differences between United States and British homicide, Prof. Monckkonen rejects conventional explanations including gun ownership, remarking
    Virtually every analysis put forward to explain the [comparatively] very high United States homicide rate has been ahistorical ... Had they been proposed as historical, they would have floundered quickly for the explanatory inadequacy of these "pet" theories becomes immediately apparent in a historical context.[143](p.39)
    When most European countries finally began enacting gun laws in the post-World War I period, the motivation was not crime (with which those countries had been little afflicted) but terrorism and political violence from which they have continued to suffer until today far more than the United States.[144] This difference is reflected in a practice that helps to keep official English murder rates so admirably low: English statistics do not include "political" murders (e.g., those by the IRA), whereas American statistics include every kind of murder and manslaughter. The different purposes of European versus American laws are evidenced by their diametrically opposite patterns: many of the "Saturday Night Special" laws that American states enacted to deal with 19th-century crime have banned all but standard military-issue revolvers (i.e., the very expensive large, heavy Colt). In stark contrast, such military caliber arms were the first guns banned in post-World War I Europe, the purpose being to disarm restive former soldiers and the para-military groups they formed.[145]
    Moreover, the claim that greater gun availability causes higher United States crime rates can only explain the rates of violence with guns. If gun availability were the explanation for higher crime rates, rather than socio-cultural and institutional differences, gun banning countries would have less gun crime than the United States, but roughly the same rates of non-violence. But, in fact, the rate of United States violence without guns is so great it exceeds the rate of violence in other comparable nations, both with and without guns (combined). That comparison applies not just among the United States and gun banning countries, but also among the United States and countries where guns are even more available (such as New Zealand, Switzerland, and Israel). These facts utterly refute the notion that greater gun availability is the major factor in violence differences among the United States and other nations.
    England's leading gun control analyst sardonically disposes of the issues with two rhetorical questions. First, how do those who blame "lax American gun laws" for the far higher U.S. rate of gun crime explain the country's also having far more knife crimes? Do they think that Englishmen must get a permit to own a butcher knife? Second, how do those who attribute U.S. gun murders to greater gun availability explain the far higher U.S. rate of stranglings and of victims being kicked to death? Do they think that Americans "have more hands and feet than" Britons? Flatly asserting that, no matter how stringent the gun laws, there will always be enough guns (p.40)in any society to arm those desiring to obtain and use them illegally, the analyst attributes grossly higher American violence rates "not to the availability of any particular class of weapon" but to socio-cultural and institutional factors that dictate
    that American criminals are more willing to use extreme violence; [quoting a report of the British Office of Health Economics]: "One reason often given for the high numbers of murders and manslaughters in the United States is the easy availability of firearms ... But the strong correlation with racial and linked socio-economic variables suggests that the underlying determinants of the homicide rate relate to particular cultural factors."[146]
    Copied from GUNS, MURDERS, AND THE CONSTITUTION.

    Oh yeah, Japans citizens and even police are completely restricted from having firearms and looky!

    Violence in Japan’s elementary schools
    BNE: Japanese elementary schools are becoming ever more increasingly violent, according to government statistics. This is beginning to challenge the myth of Japan as an orderly society in which schoolchildren sit attentively, respond in unison and respect teachers. The number of reported cases of violence rose to a record 1,890 during the past school year. This broke the previous record of 1,600 cases set in 2003. A government spokesperson attributed the violence to children having “difficulties expressing their feelings” or lacking patience. Japan began surveying school violence in 1997 following a string of macabre and disturbing crimes committed by younger students. The most shocking crime was the decapitation of a ten-year-old by a classmate.
    Attacks against teachers jumped nearly 33 per cent to 336 cases during the latest school year. The government report stated: “In many cases, children easily lost their tempers because of trivial things and quickly turned to violence.” This has included record numbers of stabbings, assaults and vandalism of school property. One attempt at resolving the situation included dismayed parents keeping watch on their own children during classes. Teachers are under increasing strain and school officials have expressed an inability to cope. When they confront parents about a child’s delinquent behavior, the matter is shrugged off with an explanation that the child behaves well in the home. Police statistics show juvenile delinquency is steadily increasing.
    Taken from Breaking News English ESL Lesson Plan on Bullying

  3. #33
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    If you're really concerned about the government you should speak out against the police state that's been put in place to combat the war on drugs and the overzealousness of police officers and paramilitary in our country.

    Most gun nuts, however, praise the police who have full rights to shoot people they deem "suspicious" without any sort of repercussion.
    That really isn't true. Many gun owners/activists are also pro-civil liberties and decry the militarization of police departments in this country. Not all, clearly, but a good number.
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  4. #34
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    If you're really concerned about the government you should speak out against the police state that's been put in place to combat the war on drugs and the overzealousness of police officers and paramilitary in our country.

    Most gun nuts, however, praise the police who have full rights to shoot people they deem "suspicious" without any sort of repercussion.
    Don't worry, I am equally as vocal about my disagreement with the war on drugs and its residual effects.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  5. #35
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Thank you dear Oberon for your passionate support for me but I would prefer your passionate support for the democratic right of my Government to ban guns.
    Don't worry Vic, I don't think anyone here wants you anywhere within a gun's reach.

  6. #36
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    This appears to me to be a fair reading of Amendment 2. I've always thought it foolish that people would claim that all the amendments in the Bill of Rights applied to individuals except for the Second, which applied to states. C'mon folks... read it. I think the SCOTUS got this one correct.

    Now, with regard to whether it's actually a good idea for individuals to have a right to be armed... that's an entirely different question.
    I'd say it is.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That really isn't true. Many gun owners/activists are also pro-civil liberties and decry the militarization of police departments in this country. Not all, clearly, but a good number.
    As long as you're consistent. I've run into way too many pro 2nd amendment people who think the militarization of our police force is an absolutely splendid idea.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  8. #38
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    As long as you're consistent. I've run into way too many pro 2nd amendment people who think the militarization of our police force is an absolutely splendid idea.
    Most that I have met disagree with that level of police force. Though obviously I can't disagree that you've met some who do.

    The idea of a militarized police-state should scare the bejezus out of any citizen.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    Most that I have met disagree with that level of police force. Though obviously I can't disagree that you've met some who do.

    The idea of a militarized police-state should scare the bejezus out of any citizen.
    Many gun owners ARE law-and-order types, but they start to get creeped out when it's federal agents and SWAT busting down doors with automatic weapons. That scares the hell out of them, and it's one of the reasons they want their right to bear arms unabridged.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #40
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    people in australia are allowed to own guns for legitimate purposes -

    one must show they have a 'genuine reason' to acquire a firearm and self defense is not in of itself deemed a genuine reason.
    In the States, we consider self-defense to be a self-evidently "legitimate" and "genuine" reason to own guns. I personally would not wish to live in a country where it isn't.

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