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Thread: Guns!

  1. #131
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    Smile Violence and Reason

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh Victor... please, this is my country. Enough with the ad hominem attacks.
    It's the comparison that interests me. The comparison between the US and Oz.

    For we have never had a revolution, neither bourgeois or proletarian, and we have never had a civil war. Whereas you have had both.

    We both gained our independence from Britain and united a whole continent. Whereas you did it with violent revolution and violent civil war, we did it by reason.

    So the comparison between the US and Oz is the comparison between violence and reason.

    I prefer reason. What do you prefer?

  2. #132
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    We both decimated native populations. That should count for something.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, there's representative government for ya. Popular opinion had no bearing on the question of whether Parliament had authority over the colonies... an important point of order.

    It would be a little bit like living in France, as a Frenchman, and receiving a notification that you owe taxes to the US government because the US Congress passed a law that said you owe taxes.
    Problem is... there's still a bill that has to be paid. It would be a bit more like a border state begging the national guard to come in and take care of the illegal immigration situation, and then balking when the feds want that state to pay a bit more of that bill, proportionately. The colonies weren't independent at that point.

  4. #134
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    Smile The Fabrication of Aboriginal History

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    We both decimated native populations. That should count for something.
    In the case of Oz, this was a lie started by the Australian Communist Party for political purposes.

    You can find what happened in four books -

    • "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies", is a 1997 book by Jared Diamond, professor of geography and physiology at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA). In 1998 it won a Pulitzer Prize and the Aventis Prize for Best Science Book. A documentary based on the book and produced by the National Geographic Society was broadcast on PBS in July 2005.

    • "The Fabrication of Aboriginal History", in three volumes by Keith Windschuttle, an Australian historian and current editor of Quadrant, a leading Australian magazine.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Problem is... there's still a bill that has to be paid. It would be a bit more like a border state begging the national guard to come in and take care of the illegal immigration situation, and then balking when the feds want that state to pay a bit more of that bill, proportionately. The colonies weren't independent at that point.
    They weren't independent, but neither were they answerable to Parliament. The fact that there was a problem to be solved doesn't justify tyranny... which upsets many of the practical-minded, because tyranny is a great problem solver in the short term.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's the comparison that interests me. The comparison between the US and Oz.

    For we have never had a revolution, neither bourgeois or proletarian, and we have never had a civil war. Whereas you have had both.

    We both gained our independence from Britain and united a whole continent. Whereas you did it with violent revolution and violent civil war, we did it by reason.

    So the comparison between the US and Oz is the comparison between violence and reason.

    I prefer reason. What do you prefer?
    I prefer reason as well. I especially prefer it over un-subtle ad hominem attacks. If you see anyone doing that to me, could you please let them know from me, with respect?

  7. #137
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I prefer violence, lets have America wage war on Oz and see how long Oz lasts.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    They weren't independent, but neither were they answerable to Parliament. The fact that there was a problem to be solved doesn't justify tyranny... which upsets many of the practical-minded, because tyranny is a great problem solver in the short term.
    Any solution's tyranny when you don't like it. Thus, you have leftward-leaning people calling Bush's administration tyrannical, while you have rightward-leaning people calling Obama's administration tyrannical... with both thinking that their analysis is completely valid.

    Of course they were answerable to Parliament, because they were answerable to the Crown. Since the Crown had invested legislative power within his Parliament, and had not invested a coequal amount of legislative power in the colonial legislatures, Parliament definitely was in control under the English constitution. The colonies didn't rebel because it was right, though they did put out a good bit of propaganda so implying, but because at that point, it was in their best interest.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Of course they were answerable to Parliament, because they were answerable to the Crown. Since the Crown had invested legislative power within his Parliament, and had not invested a coequal amount of legislative power in the colonial legislatures, Parliament definitely was in control under the English constitution. The colonies didn't rebel because it was right, though they did put out a good bit of propaganda so implying, but because at that point, it was in their best interest.
    I flatly disagree. Not only do I disagree, I take a dim view of your motivation in promoting such a view. The ability to "invest legislative power" does not spring solely from the divine authority of the crown, but also from the consent of the governed. This is one of the principal ideas developed during the Enlightenment, but its roots go back to the Magna Carta.

    I do have to hand it to you, though... it's rare that I find someone more right-wing than I am. Congratulations.

    And when you can find me a written copy of that English constitution, I'll be glad to review the pertinent sections.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I flatly disagree. Not only do I disagree, I take a dim view of your motivation in promoting such a view. The ability to "invest legislative power" does not spring solely from the divine authority of the crown, but also from the consent of the governed. This is one of the principal ideas developed during the Enlightenment, but its roots go back to the Magna Carta.

    I do have to hand it to you, though... it's rare that I find someone more right-wing than I am. Congratulations.

    And when you can find me a written copy of that English constitution, I'll be glad to review the pertinent sections.
    Haha, that ain't a right-wing perspective at all - just a pragmatic one. Even at the time of the Revolution, most colonists recognized the sovereignty of the Crown - just as most of the Commonwealth states do to this day. This was even if they didn't like what Parliament was doing (i.e. most of them). So you had this huge propaganda war against George III and the idea of monarchy in general, which was necessary to drum up the required public support.

    When I use the term "Crown," I don't mean any one person, or any political body. It's an abstract term of political art, roughly equivalent to "sovereign authority". While kings can be overthrown, the Crown cannot, and this provides continuity to the idea of a nation-state.

    Oh, and Constitution of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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