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Thread: Guns!

  1. #111
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    It was a bad example, I wasn't advocating nationalism.

    I need to come up with a better way to explain this.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  2. #112
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    It was a bad example, I wasn't advocating nationalism.

    I need to come up with a better way to explain this.
    Communitarianism? Communitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think its a somewhat dangerous philosophy when advocated as a replacement for liberalism, but certain aspects can be useful supplements to the same.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Communitarianism? Communitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think its a somewhat dangerous philosophy when advocated as a replacement for liberalism, but certain aspects can be useful supplements to the same.
    Yeah, I'd advocate something like that, though I'm averse to any rigid ideology taken as dogmatic.

    I agree with the part about culture shaping a national identity, and I think any kind of cultural ideology is going to do that no matter what. So if you have one that balances individual liberty with the well-being of the community you'd have a fairly decently shaped culture.

    This is actually the first I've heard of Communitarianism, so I'd have to research it more.

    I've just always thought rights with responsibilities made more sense than one or the other on its own.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  4. #114
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Communitarianism is a seriously mixed bag, it was a big implicit part of the socialist, commie, anarchist responses to modernism and capitalism, the socialists and commies articulated it as a vague "fraternity", which was an easy target for conservatives who revived criticisms of the idea which had been around from before the French Revolution took up the idea, the anarchists used it as a way to try and conceptualise what they wanted instead of the state and capitalism, it got dismissed by left and right as nostalgia and parochialism.

    It went through a social democratic phase with authors like Marcel Maus' book on the gift relationship, in which he described there being no such thing as a free lunch but every gift relationship in any cultural context or epoch of history involving unspoken expectations that it be reciprocated and possibly exceeded, he also investigated almost universal admonishments in faith and fable against excessive generosity. Maus' and his ilk where social democrats and supported the welfare state as just another variety of gift relationship but wanted to see reciprocity reinforced and reforms to that effect.

    The conservatives who've taken it up now are interested pretty much in the principle of subsidiarity, no state intervention or services where popular, informal social institutions, such as the family, church or bowling team, can take care of it.

    The thing about both the conservative and anarchist arguments, which are among the clearest, is that they generally hark back to a more myriad, non-governmental welfare pluralism the idea of the "big society" instead of the "big government" but I'm not sure its not a case of seeing what you want to in the past or glorifying what where essentially creations of desperation and immiseration.

    I tend to ask what does the idea serve and generally its to allow the ideological shrinking of the state, the abolition of responsible (as opposed to representative) government and the dumping of major social problems upon unprepared and under or unfunded voluntary groups.

    The social democratic communitarianism is interesting and I whole heartedly support the idea of reciprocal relations, I tend to think that much of the charade of competitive individualism is allowed because of lots of unacknowledged co-operation and reciprocal relationships. Although in practice attempts to reform the state or economy to more closely reflect or engender those norms have only proven to be the thin end of the wedge with conservatives then moving beyond reciprocal relationships to more ideological and less practical norms of self-reliance or self-regulation.

    To be honest I would say that instead of what has been articulated as communitarianism contra individualism, I would suggest social conscience or if that smacks too much of socialism for most then simply conscientiousness. Although that's anathema to most of the norms generated in or by the economy.

    Communitarianism is generally contra individualism which is selflish or myopic individualism on the part of elites and the establishment, lets be honest it doesnt matter to more than the family, dependents and neighbours if an addict behaves in a selfish manner but if the 1% decide to move their wealth to off shore accounts because they've dont want to subsidise welfare or warfare it matters.

  5. #115
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Criminals will arm themselves whether the right to do so exists or not.

    Personally, I like having the option of blowing their head off if they trespass on my property or try to harm me or my loved ones.

    At this point in U.S. history it would be impossible to disarm the nation.

    An armed citizenry is a good check and balance against would be tyrants in a government gone bad...

    I'm a military kid, so maybe I'm biased, but that's my take on this issue.
    Get outta my head.

    Except for the trespassing part...I guess. Nah, I wouldn't go that far.
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  6. #116
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    He was more about "how much can you can pay to your government." And then collect some more...

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    You have to remember that King George III was all about "What you can do for your country."
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  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    He was more about "how much can you can pay to your government." And then collect some more...
    Actually, the taxes that Parliament tried to impose on the colonies were minor... not onerous at all. The Revolution was actually waged over a point of order, namely that in passing those taxes Parliament was attempting to usurp the authority of the various colonial legislative bodies. Had the Stamp Act been passed by the Virginia House of Burgesses, for example, there would have been no issue (over that law, in that state).

  8. #118
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Yeah it was the "without representation" part that irked the colonists the most.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  9. #119
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Actually, the taxes that Parliament tried to impose on the colonies were minor... not onerous at all. The Revolution was actually waged over a point of order, namely that in passing those taxes Parliament was attempting to usurp the authority of the various colonial legislative bodies. Had the Stamp Act been passed by the Virginia House of Burgesses, for example, there would have been no issue (over that law, in that state).
    But once again, that was the sticky point - the colonies weren't going to pass those sorts of taxes, because they didn't want to pay for the Seven Years' War exclusively. They thought England should have been stuck with the tab, since the whole thing was fought over imperialistic bullshit. Of course, since the British thought that the war was fought over the defense of the colonial subjects, they had a much different opinion.

  10. #120
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    But once again, that was the sticky point - the colonies weren't going to pass those sorts of taxes, because they didn't want to pay for the Seven Years' War exclusively. They thought England should have been stuck with the tab, since the whole thing was fought over imperialistic bullshit. Of course, since the British thought that the war was fought over the defense of the colonial subjects, they had a much different opinion.
    Well, there's representative government for ya. Popular opinion had no bearing on the question of whether Parliament had authority over the colonies... an important point of order.

    It would be a little bit like living in France, as a Frenchman, and receiving a notification that you owe taxes to the US government because the US Congress passed a law that said you owe taxes.

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