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  1. #101
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No matter how much the Euros(well West Euros at least) try to deny it, they still harbor their old rivalries and hatreds. You can't fight history.
    No frankly, you have no idea how close European youth have gotten close, when values matters.

    We have no borders between us anymore. It's not only a symbol: it matters for everyday life, it affects everyday life.

    Half of the girls I loved weren't French. Some were German, some were Italian, some were Polish, some were Irish: that's what Europe is all about.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #102
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    So you have the same problem we do -- waiting for the baby boomers to die.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #103
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No frankly, you have no idea how close European youth have gotten close, when values matters.

    We have no borders between us anymore. It's not only a symbol: it matters for everyday life, it affects everyday life.

    Half of the girls I loved weren't French. Some were German, some were Italian, some were Polish, some were Irish: that's what Europe is all about.
    This is actually something I think is amazing.

    If you went back 100 years and told someone living in Europe that not only would there peace between the nations but they would be closer to one another than ever before, you'd get laughed at.

  4. #104
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Can we criticize countries that are not in the EU? I could give them Norwegians an earful...
    We are following Norway's example and setting up a national fund.

    Norway realised their oil wouldn't last forever so invested nationally for the future.

    We find ourselves in the same position. But with the added fillip that it looks like we may have Saudi amounts of oil in our sovereign seas.

    The temptation is to spend it all at once, but the parsimonious Norwegians have shown the way.

    Just as BP stands as a stark warning.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    This is actually something I think is amazing.

    If you went back 100 years and told someone living in Europe that not only would there peace between the nations but they would be closer to one another than ever before, you'd get laughed at.
    That's actually not true. If you read accounts of Europe prior to WWI, you get a picture that parallels to the one we see now. There was free trade across the continent, travel was easy without passports, and cultural exchanges were free as well. Not to mention there were no wars since 1870, except in the Balkans. And yet that all crashed and burned in 1914.

    Even going back to the 18th century, you had Rousseau making this proclamation:

    "Today, no matter what people may say, there are no longer any Frenchmen, Germans, Spaniards, or even Englishmen; there are only Europeans. All have the same tastes, the same passions, the same manners, for no one has been shaped along national lines by peculiar institutions. All, in the same circumstances, will do the same things; all will call themselves unselfish, and be rascals; all will talk of the public welfare, and think only of themselves; all will praise moderation, and wish to be as rich as Croesus. They have no ambition but for luxury, they have no passion but for gold; sure that money will buy them all their hearts desire, they all are ready to sell themselves to the first bidder. What do they care what master they obey, under the laws of what state they live? Provided they can find money to steal and women to corrupt, they feel at home in any country."
    -Considerations on the Government of Poland


    So the idea that Europe is coming together seems to appear every generation or so, and every generation it crashes and burns once events start to show how different Europeans still are.

  6. #106
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I think the EU's "Europe" is quite distinct from the "Europe" that came before it.
    This is my understanding as well. WWII was the beginning of an gigantic change.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  7. #107
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's actually not true. If you read accounts of Europe prior to WWI, you get a picture that parallels to the one we see now. There was free trade across the continent, travel was easy without passports, and cultural exchanges were free as well. Not to mention there were no wars since 1870, except in the Balkans. And yet that all crashed and burned in 1914.

    Even going back to the 18th century, you had Rousseau making this proclamation:

    "Today, no matter what people may say, there are no longer any Frenchmen, Germans, Spaniards, or even Englishmen; there are only Europeans. All have the same tastes, the same passions, the same manners, for no one has been shaped along national lines by peculiar institutions. All, in the same circumstances, will do the same things; all will call themselves unselfish, and be rascals; all will talk of the public welfare, and think only of themselves; all will praise moderation, and wish to be as rich as Croesus. They have no ambition but for luxury, they have no passion but for gold; sure that money will buy them all their hearts desire, they all are ready to sell themselves to the first bidder. What do they care what master they obey, under the laws of what state they live? Provided they can find money to steal and women to corrupt, they feel at home in any country."
    -Considerations on the Government of Poland


    So the idea that Europe is coming together seems to appear every generation or so, and every generation it crashes and burns once events start to show how different Europeans still are.
    Ahh, I see. Thanks for that tid-bit of information then. Here's hoping it does not follow historical precedent then.

  8. #108
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    Hating a country is kind of like hating a desk, a house or a lampshade. Many people have made it, dealt with it, moved it around, soiled it, debauched it, renovated it, so on and so forth. But in the end, you can only blame yourself for not making it what you envisioned it to be. (On an individual and collective level).

  9. #109
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Galileo was wrong when he said that the universe doesnt revolve around the earth, it revolves around Europe.

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