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  1. #61
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    They could easily lose at least a hundred times anything they'd save unlawfully denying claims, settling lawsuits. And the US is a very lawsuit-happy country. Michael Moore is an idiot.
    I wasn't arguing about malpractice laws, and you're using Michael Moore as a strawman.


    Yes, insurance companies do ration healthcare, but they actually do it less (albeit less efficiently) than most European healthcare systems.
    Where is your source for this?

    The US has the highest rate of healthcare expenses per capita in the world,
    This is primarily because of so much overhead cost and overuse of tests/screenings with specialist doctors love to get since they get paid so much for em.


    as well as the highest life expectancy (adjusting for fatal accidents) in the world, as a result.
    Not according to the UN and the CIA

  2. #62
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    I wasn't arguing about malpractice laws, and you're using Michael Moore as a strawman.
    Denying necessary care is generally a breach of contract, which merits civil action, which is very expensive for insurance companies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    Where is your source for this?
    I'd have to dig around (this is good enough for starters), but while the waiting times argument is an idiotic strawman, Canada and most European governments do extensively practice triage and healthcare rationing in order to keep costs down.

    This is primarily because of so much overhead cost and overuse of tests/screenings with specialist doctors love to get since they get paid so much for em.
    I don't disagree, actually. It isn't entirely useless (see below), but it's far too costly. Please note that I do not support the US healthcare system -- it's of better quality than European "socialist" systems, but it's an enormous drain on the economy. People can't afford it, and neither can businesses.

    My favorite healthcare system is Singapore's. It encourages personal savings (my favorite feature of it), it's cost-efficient, and everyone's covered without it being an onerous drain on the taxpayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    I said adjusting for fatal accidents (source).
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Denying necessary care is generally a breach of contract, which merits civil action, which is very expensive for insurance companies.
    Ah, I see what you're saying. From what I've seen (this is purely anecdotal) insurance companies get away with this by using recission (basically saying that you violated your insurance by not telling them about something or whatever,) or dragging it through the courts. The people trying to get their insurance to pay out are also usually looking at massive medical bills at the time so court fees and what not probably don't look appealing either.

    From what I've seen the ACA is addressing this to some extent.

    I'd have to dig around (this is good enough for starters), but while the waiting times argument is an idiotic strawman, Canada and most European governments do extensively practice triage and healthcare rationing in order to keep costs down.
    I'm fine with triage like care. Part of our exorbitant costs come from over use of testing and other things like that. Too much emphasis on throwing medicine/surgery at a problem rather than preventative care.

    I don't disagree, actually. It isn't entirely useless (see below), but it's far too costly. Please note that I do not support the US healthcare system -- it's of better quality than European "socialist" systems, but it's an enormous drain on the economy. People can't afford it, and neither can businesses.

    My favorite healthcare system is Singapore's. It encourages personal savings (my favorite feature of it), it's cost-efficient, and everyone's covered without it being an onerous drain on the taxpayer.


    I said adjusting for fatal accidents (source).
    That's a rather small difference in life expectancy when you compare the amount of money the US spends on healthcare versus what those countries spend.

    I'm a proponent of a health care system that just guarantees care for everyone regardless. I couldn't care less if it's a system like Single Payer in Canada, or expanded Medicare, or NHS, or a privatized systems like in Switzerland(I think) and Australia.

  4. #64
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Why? health care is kind of a mess here.. and contrary to myth.. it's not free.. Wait till you see how much taxes you pay..
    Your taxes aren't as likely to bankrupt you as a $100000 surgery bill though ...

    There is already an extensive thread to debate health care.

    Edit: adding threads - http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ll-passes.html and http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...obamacare.html (not sure why that was split out of the first thread posted.)

    Enjoy!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #65
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    as well as the highest life expectancy (adjusting for fatal accidents) in the world, as a result.
    That's a weird statistic, could you provice the source?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #66
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I said adjusting for fatal accidents (source).
    That data must be terribly old, I'm sure life expectancy in Italy is at least 5 years more nowadays. Moreoever, scrolling down on that post:

    According to "OECD Economic Surveys: United States 2008", p. 137:
    "It has been claimed (Ohsfeld and Schneider, 2006) that adjusting for the higher death rate from accident or injury in the United States over 1980-99 than the OECD average would increase US life expectancy at birth from 18th of of 29 OECD countries to the highest. In fact, what the panel regression estimated by these authors shows is that predicted life expectancy at birth based on US GDP per capita and OECD average death rates from these causes is the highest in the OECD. The adjustment for the gap in injury death rates between the United States and OECD average alone only increases life expectancy at birth marginally, from 19th on average among 29 countries over 1980-99 to 17th. Hence, the high ranking of adjusted life expectancy mainly reflects high US GDP per capita, not the effects of unusually high death rates from accident and injury."

    In other words, the figures in Table 1-5 are not U.S. life expectancy adjusted for fatal injuries, but rather a model that assumes that both the relationship of life expectancy to per capita GDP and injuries in the U.S. follow OECD trends.

    That is - they are giving the U.S. credit for having the same basic life expectancy as other other high GDP OECD countries, when in fact it is markedly lower.
    That's horrible methodology.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #67
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    they pumped stimulating money ? That nasty canadians
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #68
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    What's wrong with insurance companies making money? Insurance companies underwrite at a loss, and make it whole by investing their premiums.
    A former student of mine had a great perspective on insurance - by taking out insurance you are in effect betting that you are going to lose.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  9. #69
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You're forgetting beer in there somewhere ...
    Marketing propaganda. Fuck beer.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  10. #70
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Travers: Changing Canada, one backward step at a time

    Published On Sat Jun 19 2010

    By James Travers, National Affairs Columnist

    Imagine a country where Parliament is padlocked twice in 13 months to frustrate the democratic will of the elected majority. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that slyly relaxes environmental regulations even as its neighbour reels from a catastrophic oil leak blamed on slack controls. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that boasts about prudent financial management while blowing through a $13-billion surplus on the way to a $47-billion deficit. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country where a political operative puts fork-tongued words in a top general’s mouth. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that refuses to fund the same safe abortions to poor women abroad as it provides at home. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country where the national police commissioner skews a federal election and is never forced to explain. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that writes a covert manual on sabotaging Commons committees. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country dragging its climate change feet as the true north melts. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that silences political debate on the sale of a publicly owned, crown jewel corporation. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that puts higher priority on building super-prisons than keeping people out of them. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country where parties that win the most federal seats are dismissed as “losers”. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that twists its foreign policy around the interests of another nation. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that argues that barricading its largest city promotes tourism. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that promises Senate reform only to continue stuffing it with political hacks. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that avoids answers about a controversial war by accusing questioners of supporting the enemy. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country where party apparatchiks decide who in a nominally free press is allowed to ask the Prime Minister questions. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country where donut shop wisdom is more prized than expert analysis. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that builds a fake lake for a tough-times summit. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that preaches law and order while killing a long-gun registry police chiefs insist makes citizens safer. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country where serving the Prime Minister as chief propagandist is job preparation for running a national news network. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country where charities mute constructive criticism of public policy for fear of losing federal funding. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that can spend $1.2 billion for summit security but can’t find the petty cash needed to invest in the status of women. That country is now this country.
    Imagine a country that promises accountability only to impose secrecy. That country is now this country.
    Every example is familiar, all are documented. Only the cumulative effect is surprising.
    Conservatives came to power knowing reluctant Canadians could only be shifted to the political right incrementally. That movement is now advancing according to the plan Conservative thinker, strategist and Stephen Harper mentor Tom Flanagan infuriated the Prime Minister by making public.
    Imagine that.
    Link: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...step-at-a-time
    James Travers' column appears Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

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