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  1. #41
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Scots-Irish would be accurate, I dont know if they were all from Ulster or not, Ulster was the main planted region of Ireland and it was mainly elements of the Scottish disaporia who had been stopping off there.

    Its a complicated picture because persecuted scots RCs left for Ireland the islands after the highlanders were defeated at Cullodeen (although most of them were killed and some became "wild geese" like the Irish after the Williamite wars joining foreign armies who promised to provide opportunities to "kill the english").

    At another time it were persecuted protestants, particularly covenantors, dissenters or presbytarians who left Scotland (with grievances against RCs and the established Churches, to carve a niche in Ireland, generally by killing or assimilating the natives).

    Given the vicious sectarianism and constant fighting or terror its not a wonder that people were constantly on the to some place were they wouldnt be someone elses bitch, unfortunately they werent beneath making other people their bitches when they got there.

    The idea of Ulster-Scots is an invention of people who associate all things Irish with Roman Catholicism, the Ulsterisation of Northern Ireland's protestants didnt happen until after partition.
    The other big part of this whole shebang was the ongoing enclosure of Great Britain. Most of the Scots who moved to Ulster weren't there of their own volition; English landlords kicked them out of their leaseholds due to the growing population.

    Here's where the history gets a little dicey. It's usually stated that at this point, a large group of them came to the colonies in search of better lives. Of course, this glosses over the fact that the landlords didn't want them there in Ulster, as landholders again consolidated their holdings (beginnings of industrialization). A large portion of the "immigrants" were either transported to the Southern penal colonies, or were forced into indentures - which while nominally temporary, tended to last a lifetime, since you'd have to buy farming equipment and supplies.

    Thus, the "old South" is formed - a few wealthy planters and landlords, a whole lot of Scots-Irish sharecroppers (debt slaves) and African chattel slaves. Lovely place to be in.

  2. #42
    ThatGirl
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    Cool, I am reading thousands of pages of anatomy text...cover to cover.

    Just like a real girl!

  3. #43
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...the Ulsterisation of Northern Ireland's protestants didnt happen until after partition.
    As always Lark is woefully ignorant, not only of his own history, but the terminology employed.

    The term Ulsterisation is a reference to the policing policy in the Province, circa 1975, to disengage mainland British troops from the tribal conflict, employ local agents and limit the Troubles to Northern Ireland.

    Zero out of ten. Must try harder. Must read the content, not just skim the words.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Scots-Irish would be accurate, I dont know if they were all from Ulster or not, Ulster was the main planted region of Ireland and it was mainly elements of the Scottish disaporia who had been stopping off there. ..
    The idea of Ulster-Scots is an invention of people who associate all things Irish with Roman Catholicism, the Ulsterisation of Northern Ireland's protestants didnt happen until after partition.

    They are called Ulster-Irish by some Historians because that is where they set sail from to come to America. Calling them Scots-Irish was an Americanism that developed in the time period and the Scots resented it.

    They came mainly from the low lands of Scotland and Northern England. Between 1733-1773 400,000 persons came from Ireland to the Colonies, mainly embarking from Ulster, this comes from the Dublin Journal, 1773. But Bernard Bailyn put the number at 155,000 to 205,000.

    Ulster Emigration to Colonial America 1718-1775, by R. J. Dickson.

    Voyages to The West by Bernard Bailyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    At another time it were persecuted protestants, particularly covenantors, dissenters or presbytarians who left Scotland (with grievances against RCs and the established Churches, to carve a niche in Ireland, generally by killing or assimilating the natives).
    Many Ulster Protestants in this time period were of English or Irish origin not Scottish. Scotland and its first American Colony 1683-1765 by Ned Landsman.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you ever pass judgement on someone based on what they read or would recommend as a good read?
    I only pass judgement on the reason why they read what they read and why they recommend what they recommend. And even then it's probably as joke. Usually.

  6. #46
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    I don't like people seeing the Marylin Manson book I'm reading...

  7. #47
    Phantonym
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you ever pass judgement on someone based on what they read or would recommend as a good read?

    I've found myself doing that when I see friends bookshelves, I tend to think that maybe they are telling a story about themselves by the books they choose to display but perhaps I've softened as I've grown older because I'm now more inclined to consider them a talking point than to prejudge anyone, apart from when I find out they are a fan of Ayn Rand.
    I don't consiously pass judgement on people based on what they read or what they recommend. How can I? I don't have the ability to read people's minds to see what these books really mean to them. They probably find something in those books that speaks to them in such a way that I have no understanding of. If I might not like the books they're reading, then it's my problem, not theirs, and they shouldn't be the ones suffering because of my negative judgement. Also, I don't regard people who read and like the books I like to read, to be in a better, more positive, light than the others. People have different interest, that's what makes them interesting. Passing judgement on somebody prevents you to see just how interesting they might be.

    This reminds me of The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins where a character, when he found himself in need of some contemplation, would read passages of Robinson Crusoe and find answers to his questions and worries. That could work with any kind of book out there.

    But, anyway, I find your idea interesting. There was a time when people around where I live used to collect encyclopedias or "books by important and well-renowned authors" and to have those books on display was considered as something to strive for. I can admit that I am suspicious of what people choose to display on their bookshelves ever since and wonder whether it's what they really enjoy reading or do they have a "secret stash" of books that matter much more to them. It's just a feeling I can't seem to shake.

  8. #48
    Playnerd Timeless's Avatar
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    That means I am astronomy.

  9. #49
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The other big part of this whole shebang was the ongoing enclosure of Great Britain. Most of the Scots who moved to Ulster weren't there of their own volition; English landlords kicked them out of their leaseholds due to the growing population.

    Here's where the history gets a little dicey. It's usually stated that at this point, a large group of them came to the colonies in search of better lives. Of course, this glosses over the fact that the landlords didn't want them there in Ulster, as landholders again consolidated their holdings (beginnings of industrialization). A large portion of the "immigrants" were either transported to the Southern penal colonies, or were forced into indentures - which while nominally temporary, tended to last a lifetime, since you'd have to buy farming equipment and supplies.

    Thus, the "old South" is formed - a few wealthy planters and landlords, a whole lot of Scots-Irish sharecroppers (debt slaves) and African chattel slaves. Lovely place to be in.
    According the information I have, the majority of Scots who emigrated to the thirteen colonies came as free laborers. From London indenture forms for 1683-86 out of 1,701 indentured servants, 91.7 percent were from England, 2.4 from Scotland, 1.3 from Wales, 1.1 from Ireland. Scottish Emigration to Colonial America 1607-1785 by David Dobson.

    in 1773-76 only one percent of Scotish border and twenty percent of Northern English emigrants came as indentured servants.

    Irish and Scottish servants were seen as too prideful and troublesome for British Americans to deal with and Irish indentures were more likely to go to Barbados than the 13 colonies. Source: Voyages to the West, 1773-76
    Bernard Bailyn.

    Fifteen percent of the Scottish emigrants to America in the 18th C were indentures. Most Scottish who emigrated to America were tradesmen, a very small number of them common laborers forced out by industrialization. Source: The Scottish settlers of America: the 17th and 18th centuries By Stephen M. Millett


    But I know you can find textbooks claiming that one half of all Scottish Emigrants to America on the eve of the Revolution were indentures. I'd feel more comfortable believing the historians who specialize in that topic than a textbook though.

    And its confusing because a disproportinate number of those Scottish who were indeuntures did settle in the Carlolinas, it makes their numbers look inflated.

  10. #50
    Sniffles
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    So I'm just a bunch a large collection of tomes I guess.

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