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  1. #71
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Globalization has arranged the world’s wealth so that developed nations control the vast majority of, and the disparity between the global rich and poor is astronomical. People in so-called "developing" countries struggle to survive on wages as low as $2 a day, and when they cannot survive on this or cannot find work, many have no choice but to leave their homes in search of opportunity in developed nations.
    Zero-sum fallacy. The amount of wealth each nation controls is dependent on how much each nation produces. Workers in the developed world make more than workers in the developing world for no other reason than that, because their economics policies have been sounder, they produce more. There is no transfer of wealth going on here.

    In North America specifically, the North American Free Trade Agreement has allowed cheap, US-grown corn to enter the Mexican market, undercutting Mexican farmers and forcing them to seek work elsewhere.
    Correct, but somewhat irrelevant. Labor-intensive farming is, itself, a very labor-intensive activity, which produces less per worker and thus pays less per worker than any job available North of the border. Mexicans aren't leaving Mexico because there's no work in Mexico (Mexico has an unemployment rate of 4%), but because jobs in Mexico don't pay well.

    Thus, capitalism has created the conditions that make undocumented immigration into the US the only choice for many Mexicans and other Latin Americans.
    Bad policy has done that, and good policy has made the US, Europe and Northeast Asia successful by comparison. And good or bad policy can happen under any system (compare Pol Pot's Cambodia to Soviet Russia, for example).

    It is not the presence of undocumented immigrants in our economy that drives down wages, but rather the corporations that take advantage of their willingness to work for such meager wages. If corporations were less motivated by their profit margin and more motivated by humanitarian ideals, undocumented immigrants would earn wages equal to those of American citizens, and wages would have remained higher.
    If there are more workers within the country, they must either produce more or get paid less, wage disparities notwithstanding. That's basic math. Zero profit would simply mean the workers would get paid more (and then only marginally more -- most corporations run on a profit margin of 15% or less).

    A different mode of production is precisely what we need - I don't disagree that SOME other modes of production may have the same effect, but there are some that would not. Take Denmark, for example. There is a very small gap between the highest earners and lowest-paid workers in Denmark. The average tax rate is 52%. And it has been named the happiest country in the world several years in a row.
    Denmark is a capitalist economy, exactly the same as the US. Its economic structure is actually more business-friendly than the American economic structure, as it has a laxer regulatory structure and lower corporate taxes.
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  2. #72
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    You say that wealth is proportionate to what each country produces... but what about all the wealth that American corporations amass by exploiting workers not only in the US, but in other countries. An example: a company that makes baseballs had a plant in Haiti where workers sewed the stitching into the balls. For this, they were paid 14 cents a day. Well, this plant was closed, and many people lost what little income they had, because the company moved the factory to China where they could get CHEAPER LABOR. This is a major problem.

    What I'm getting at is the historical root off global inequality, and that is European capitalist/imperialist policies. "Developing" nations are only "underdeveloped" by European standards, because Europeans came in, colonized, and imposed their standards on people who were already getting along just fine. This is what Europeans did to American Indians, Africa, Asia - everywhere. Be fore we can really achieve global equality, we need to compensate for the inequality in the current system... which can only really be done by destroying the current system. I'm talking about implementing a WORLD WIDE system.

  3. #73
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    1) Not if production is sufficiently capital-intensive.
    Usually, capital-intensive production is highly technological (well, more precisely: the more capital-intensive, the more technological).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #74
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    You say that wealth is proportionate to what each country produces... but what about all the wealth that American corporations amass by exploiting workers not only in the US, but in other countries. An example: a company that makes baseballs had a plant in Haiti where workers sewed the stitching into the balls. For this, they were paid 14 cents a day. Well, this plant was closed, and many people lost what little income they had, because the company moved the factory to China where they could get CHEAPER LABOR. This is a major problem.
    Well, this is where labor productivity comes into play. If a country has better capital machinery, more skilled labor, and better transport links and infrastructure, then production becomes more cost-effective there and thus labor in that country is more highly demanded, and better compensated. That's why people are better paid in Germany than they are in China, and better paid in China than, say, Haiti (I severely doubt that the Haitian plant moved to China because Chinese wages are cheaper -- Chinese factory workers get an average of 90 cents an hour, which is a helluva lot more than 14 cents a day).

    What I'm getting at is the historical root off global inequality, and that is European capitalist/imperialist policies. "Developing" nations are only "underdeveloped" by European standards, because Europeans came in, colonized, and imposed their standards on people who were already getting along just fine.
    Bullcrap, Africa, India and America were poor as shit before European colonization. Europe itself was poor as shit back then, because it was not industrialized. Then came the 19th century, Europe implemented an industral policy successfully, and most of the rest of the world did not. The rest of the world was left behind.
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  5. #75
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Usually, capital-intensive production is highly technological (well, more precisely: the more capital-intensive, the more technological).
    Point being?
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  6. #76
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Wow, I never thought I'd be called a Keynesian on these boards. I've been called a communist and a Keynesian in the past few months, actually. What the hell is going on?
    A fanatical and uneducated fervor about some fuzzy idea of neo-liberal economics is whipping around, that's what.

    You may be finding yourself having the Goldwater experience.
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  7. #77
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    A fanatical and uneducated fervor about some fuzzy idea of neo-liberal economics is whipping around, that's what.
    Are you saying I'm neoliberal? He (she?) was spouting Keynesian bullshit -- That inflation is in any way related to employment and wages is a Keynesian concept at its very core.
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  8. #78
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Maybe I should have said something like neo-classical-liberalism, as stupid as that term is.

    Political terms are so confused.
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  9. #79
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    I'm not either, at all.
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  10. #80
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Point being?
    Well, usually illegal immigrants don't work for highly technological firms, that's my point.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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