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  1. #61
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...in the cases where your three "if"s are valid, maybe...
    Not maybe, definitely. The only place where there's a benefit (other than to the investor elite) is as an externality to people working outside of fields whose wages are depressed. That essentially means low-end workers get the shaft for the sake of marginal benefits to the skilled middle class. Hardly seems fair.
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  2. #62
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    That essentially means low-end workers get the shaft for the sake of marginal benefits to the skilled middle class. Hardly seems fair.
    Oh... so you mean that low-end workers get shafted for having no skills, no education, and especially no credentials?

    Get out your 'astonished' crayon, and color me 'astonished.'

    The moral of the story is:

    1. Get some education, and
    2. Be legal.

    There will always be shit jobs, and the workers who are scraped from the bottom of the labor pool barrel will always gravitate toward them. Think this is unfair for illegal aliens? Yep, it's absolutely unfair. They're here because with all the unfairness, it's still a better place to live than where they're coming from.

  3. #63
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Okay.... I'm feeling up to jumping in a bit now.

    Regarding wage depression:
    Capitalism and corporate greed have created the demand for cheaper and cheaper labor so that profits go up, while wages go down. It is not the undocumented that CAUSE wages to go down, but rather, the fact that we have undocumented immigrants AND that wages have decreased in relation to prices (and profit) are symptoms of the same problem.


    Also, someone mentioned the percentage of undocumented people in prisons. According to the Public Policy Institute of CA, a nonpartisan think tank, that percentage is high (http://www.ppic.org/main/publication.asp?i=776):

    "We find that the foreign-born, who make up about 35 percent
    of the adult population in California, constitute only about 17 percent of the adult prison population. Thus, immigrants are underrepresented in California prisons compared to their representation in the overall population. In fact, U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men."

    This is for CA specifically, but since CA is one of the states with the highest population of undocumented workers, I don't think the percentage would be any higher in other states or nationally.

  4. #64
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh... so you mean that low-end workers get shafted for having no skills, no education, and especially no credentials?
    A lot of people are stupid and are incapable of obtaining proper credentials. I don't think those people should get shafted by society just because God hates them.
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  5. #65
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Regarding wage depression:
    Capitalism and corporate greed have created the demand for cheaper and cheaper labor so that profits go up, while wages go down. It is not the undocumented that CAUSE wages to go down, but rather, the fact that we have undocumented immigrants AND that wages have decreased in relation to prices (and profit) are symptoms of the same problem.
    Somebody needs to go take an econ 101 class, it seems. "Capitalism" doesn't create the demand for anything, capitalism being merely the mode of production. Capitalists demand cheap labor, and workers demand high wages, because each is looking out for its own interests. The interplay of supply and demand settles this conflict, by awarding more bargaining power to whichever side represents the scarcer end of this equation. That is, more demand for workers and/or less workers available will equal higher wages, whereas less demand for workers and/or more workers available will equal lower wages. Guess what happens when a large, constant influx of immigrant workers enters the country?
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  6. #66
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Somebody needs to go take an econ 101 class, it seems. "Capitalism" doesn't create the demand for anything, capitalism being merely the mode of production. Capitalists demand cheap labor, and workers demand high wages, because each is looking out for its own interests.
    Semantics... the reason we have capitalists is because of capitalism.

  7. #67
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Right. If we didn't have capitalism, we'd have another mode of production, and then wages would be dependent on total productivity per head, which is diluted by a greater presence of workers (which, again, is a direct consequence of immigration). Ergo your argument still fails, even if we ignore the fact you ignored the entirety of my own counterclaim.
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  8. #68
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Right. If we didn't have capitalism, we'd have another mode of production, and then wages would be dependent on total productivity per head, which is diluted by a greater presence of workers (which, again, is a direct consequence of immigration). Ergo your argument still fails, even if we ignore the fact you ignored the entirety of my own counterclaim.
    I was getting to that...

    It is precisely the capitalist production mode, and globalization of this production mode, that is the problem.

    Globalization has arranged the world’s wealth so that developed nations control the vast majority of, and the disparity between the global rich and poor is astronomical. People in so-called "developing" countries struggle to survive on wages as low as $2 a day, and when they cannot survive on this or cannot find work, many have no choice but to leave their homes in search of opportunity in developed nations. In North America specifically, the North American Free Trade Agreement has allowed cheap, US-grown corn to enter the Mexican market, undercutting Mexican farmers and forcing them to seek work elsewhere. Thus, capitalism has created the conditions that make undocumented immigration into the US the only choice for many Mexicans and other Latin Americans. Unfortunately, although the Universal Declaration of Human Rights decrees that all human beings have the right to employment and compensation sufficient for the satisfaction of their needs and a dignified existence, economic hardship is not among the conditions that qualify for asylum, at least in the United States.

    It is not the presence of undocumented immigrants in our economy that drives down wages, but rather the corporations that take advantage of their willingness to work for such meager wages. If corporations were less motivated by their profit margin and more motivated by humanitarian ideals, undocumented immigrants would earn wages equal to those of American citizens, and wages would have remained higher.

    A different mode of production is precisely what we need - I don't disagree that SOME other modes of production may have the same effect, but there are some that would not. Take Denmark, for example. There is a very small gap between the highest earners and lowest-paid workers in Denmark. The average tax rate is 52%. And it has been named the happiest country in the world several years in a row. Granted, they struggle with the concept of immigration as well (mainly for reasons of cultural difference, not economics like in the US... although I suspect that for a lot of people, the main problem really is actually the cultural difference...). But imagine this: a system like Denmark's, on a global scale. Perhaps a worldwide "federal" government with soft borders between countries (much like states in the US). People, goods and money would be free to cross borders at their will, and as for "extra" people (i.e. immigrants) coming in to throw off the balance.... well, the problem wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be any "extra" people.

  9. #69
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think this information may help. As you may be familiar, there is a debate regarding how constitution should be interpreted. One school of thought favors an originalist reading which posits that the constitution should be interpreted in terms of what it meant to its initial writers and their audience. Typically they tend to be rather literal in their interpretation. The rival school of thought is the Living Constitution, they tend to think that the constitution is rather flexible and its principels are to be interpreted in a very general sense. According to them, the constitution should not impose rigid doctrines onto the law, but should only be a guiding light composed of very vague, abstract and general principles.

    The Republicans of Arizona could defend their bill on the basis of a living constitution reading of the Constitution, they could say that the principle offers citizenship to the children of people who were forced to enter the country against their will. As is well known, the 14th Amendment was established to grant citizenship to the children of slaves, not to illegal immigrants.

    I am not saying that I would agree with this conclusion, merely pointing out how their argument could seem reasonable to some people. For my part, I find this move very strange. Republicans tend to be averse to the Living Constitution interpretive method, they perfer to be very literal in reading that document just as they prefer to be literal when reading their Bible.
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  10. #70
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Wow, I never thought I'd be called a Keynesian on these boards. I've been called a communist and a Keynesian in the past few months, actually. What the hell is going on?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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