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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You're seriously kidding me.
    No

    I cant see that ever happening, if it did I'd guess that a single power would emerge and conquer neighbouring states again without much time passing, perhaps enforcing its own ideological agenda in the process.
    Well, yeah, that's a real possibility in such a scenario, but I never said it wasn't.

    The reality is that the USA is a unified single national identity,
    Yeah
    no matter how the much the differences between "Jesus Land" and the rest of it are exaggerated domestically or elsewhere,
    I think you fail to recognize just how big those differences are. Is it enough to lead to the break-up of the US in the event of a total economic collapse? I dunno, maybe not (again I just raised it as a possibility, not a probability), as you correctly note there is a strong national identity in the US, but I don't think it's an unreasonable scenario to postulate either.

    I lived for many years down South. And it's safe to say that the majority of White Southerners I encountered thought things would be better off if the Confederacy had won. Combine that with a strong distrust of the Federal government, the culture/religion wars and a mutual distrust of the decadent, homo-lovin, secular Yankees, and I really don't think it's as unlikely of a possibility as you seem to think it is.

    The ideologies of those sessessionist quarters of the US, the Tea Party people or Free State Project or whatever would make those regions seriously ripe pickings for robber baron corporate entities who'd quickly reduce them to the state of a bannana republic with a pittance of wage and zero cash circulating as a result, perhaps the wealth of the over lords would eventually provoke a rethink but I seriously doubt it.
    Perhaps, but that doesn't mean there would not be secession.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    I've heard multiple so-called analysts (usually from abroad) suggest this, only they provide no reason for the regions to exist! What unifies the Northeast? What unifies the Midwest? The Pacific Coast? Nothing that doesn't already unify the entire US.

    Unlike smaller countries, each State Government in the US can remain functional without an intact Federal Government. The trains will continue to run.

    If the US government does temporarily collapse, we will split into our respective states until a national government can be re-formed.
    I have heard US analysts come up with similar perspectives, its a racial division and also to do with perceived dependency upon welfare.

  3. #13
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Right, but in both cases the government wanted to grow without raising taxes, and therein lies the problem. Not that I support government growth-- far from it-- but when GW Bush decides he's gonna cut taxes while engaging in massive deficit spending, it's not just government growth that's the problem, but lack of political will to fund it.
    If we taxed 100% of our national income (which isn't possible), it would STILL take nearly a decade to pay off our liabilities.

    The time to save this situation with taxes has passed...our debt is too big. Blame whoever the hell you want, it won't help us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    And I don't think the solution is to start going after public pensions, especially at a time in America where the average savings for working people is at a negative, and many people won't have enough money to retire as it is.
    I think you misunderstand me.

    There ARE no public pensions to "go after." They are already gone. Spent. MIA. Empty.

    California's Public Pension Debt - WSJ.com



    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    What programs?
    Social Security.
    Medicare.
    Unemployment Insurance.
    Federal Payroll.
    National Healthcare.
    Education.
    Defense.

    Anyone who honestly looks at the government ledgers can see the situation is dire, and our leadership is in denial. We're killing the golden goose.

    ---

    The markets see the situation, and thus are extremely volatile. One headline of bad news will send the Dow plunging 1000 points.

  4. #14
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    2010 has another crash looming, keep your eyes peeled to the news.

  5. #15
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    2010 has another crash looming, keep your eyes peeled to the news.
    Source please? Otherwise you get the Nostradamus award for the day.
    --------------------
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    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Social Security.
    Medicare.
    Unemployment Insurance.
    Federal Payroll.
    National Healthcare.
    Education.
    Defense.
    Return to a pre-1889 non-interventionist foreign policy, decriminalize all activities which do not directly violate the rights of someone else, legalize and tax drugs-- do all that and there should still be money left over for SS, medicare, education, UI, etc.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Source please?

  8. #18
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    it's not just going to collapse, and arguing about it is futile because the future's too hard to see.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #19
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Return to a pre-1889 non-interventionist foreign policy, decriminalize all activities which do not directly violate the rights of someone else, legalize and tax drugs-- do all that and there should still be money left over for SS, medicare, education, UI, etc.
    But wouldn't this change many balances of power around the world and caused alot of poltical and economic turmoil? (I mean is it worth it ?)

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    But wouldn't this change many balances of power around the world and caused alot of poltical and economic turmoil? (I mean is it worth it ?)
    Yes to all three.

    Look, the US ain't always gonna be top dog anyways. Every empire falls. We can't save everyone in the world, short of a major socio-political-economic reordering/revolution on a global level, but we can save our part of it.

    Besides, regardless of the consequences, the act of interfering in the affairs of sovereign nations is itself unjust.

    And even if you did want to talk about consequences independent of the act itself, we could debate all day about whether the consequences of US intervention or withdrawal are worse. I'd argue the former. The Muslim world is fucked up in large part because the US and UK can't stop sticking their fucking noses where they don't belong and the people of that region don't have an opportunity to work shit out for themselves without an imperial power from outside the region interfering.

    I'd favor doing it anyways from a deonotological ethical perspective, but even from a consequentialist perspective, in the long run I think we'd all be better off.

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