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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    In other words, you don't know, but would prefer to attribute a belligerent state of mind to one party, where fear is as/more reasonable and likely an inference.
    And you are inferring that the mob attacked the soldiers with knives and clubs out of fear without evidence.

    Even if they were fearful, feelings alone does not entitle one to act with lethal force. There must be reasons to believe that one's life is in imminent danger. Additionally, even if the mob's violence was caused by panic, the soldiers would still not be guilty of murder since they did what they have to in order to survive the situation.

    So they are to blame for lacking a crystal ball and possibly expecting the worst from people they believe to be heavy-handed aggressors. In international waters.
    You don't need a crystal ball. Empirical evidence does not support the claim that regular encounters with Israeli enforcers will have a high probability of death.

  2. #72
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    This comment on another website caught my eye:
    Of course a lot of people here on HP will refuse to acknowledge the fact that the soldiers were being beaten. They will also ignore the fact that the Israelis offered to offload the aide and after inspecting it get it to the people in Gaza. They will also ignore the fact that there is another route into Gaza...Egypt but will they condemn Egypt of course not. A lot of HP posters will do this because they love taking the side of the bad guys. FANNED!

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    why should they peacefully lie back and let the Israelis invade their ship in international waters when they had no authority wehatsoever to do so and which posed no threat at all to the Israelis?
    Because reacting with lethal force will result in reciprocation from the other side. It's simply prudent to keep your cool.

    are you saying the Israelis could not have protected themselves in any other way than by shooting with live ammunition?
    That is their claim. We need to review the information before rushing to condemn.

    And then, how do you explain that they kept on shooting to kill 9 people and carried on shooting even after a white flag had been raised and there was no mroe rsistance
    We need to examine more information. There could be many reasons which does not involve malice.

  4. #74
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    And you are inferring that the mob attacked the soldiers with knives and clubs out of fear without evidence.
    Incorrect. I suggested that fear is as or more plausible a state of mind as your blatantly biased statement that they were enraged belligerent activists who (on their own ship, imagine that!) attacked poor IDF agent intruders. The obvious point is you don't know and there is much to suggest that that loaded inference is incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Even if they were fearful, feelings alone does not entitle one to act with lethal force.
    You don't say! Got any more straw where that came from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Additionally, even if the mob's violence was caused by panic, the soldiers would still not be guilty of murder since they did what they have to in order to survive the situation.
    There was no violence - "mob" or otherwise - until the IDF agents got on the flotilla, but feel free to blame the "intrudees." I haven't accused the IDF of murder, but neither have I acquitted them on precious little evidence that the force used was necessary. I believe one should only speak of that which one knows. Who knows, maybe they did manage to disarm and beat armed IDF agents onboard within an inch of their lives...

    You don't need a crystal ball. Empirical evidence does not support the claim that regular encounters with Israeli enforcers will have a high probability of death.
    That depends on who you ask.

    That said, it is very curious that someone should absolve the highly trained, fire-arm toting intruders of a boat in international waters and lay the blame at the foot of the dead who had every right to be where they were.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  5. #75
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Because reacting with lethal force will result in reciprocation from the other side. It's simply prudent to keep your cool.
    Not necessarilly. The IDF are known for imprisoning/torturing/killing peaceful protestors.

    Likewise the people on the hsip had a mission, they wanted to take aid to Gaza, why the hell shoudl they let some soldiers jsut march in and take over the ship?

    your argument amounts to "don't stand up to the IDF, they'll only kill you".

    but that is the ideology of people who live forever as slaves.

    That is their claim. We need to review the information before rushing to condemn.
    Are you denying they shot with live ammunition now?



    We need to examine more information. There could be many reasons which does not involve malice
    The explanations are clear: Israel wants to crush opposition at all costs.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #76
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhinosaur View Post
    This comment on another website caught my eye:
    So you think shooting 9 people dead is a proportionate response to a beating after you invaded their ship!?!?

    So you believe the Israelis would have given the aid to the people of Gaza if the flotilla had handed it over!?!?!?

    Am I now living in a Jon Stewart parody!?

    And HP=Harry's Place, right? Seriously this is why I stopped reading that God-awful blog years ago. Never in my life have I seen a worse mix of gullible readers and cynical journalism than on that blog.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #77
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    your argument amounts to "don't stand up to the IDF, they'll only kill you".
    Phillosophically, it amounts to "Might is Right". Fallacy-wise it's an example of the Ad Baculum or appeal to force, combined with the appeal to consequences, which is the formal fallacy here. It may be prudent not to fight back when threatened with overwhelming force, at least as regards your own immediate personal safety; but this does not make it the only ethically admissible choice, for:

    that is the ideology of people who live forever as slaves.
    Quite. A state easier to wish on others than on oneself. Though many are unaware of just how indentured in servitude to those in power they truly are...
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  8. #78
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Perhaps the lesson here is that blockade running is dangerous.

    Who would have imagined?

  9. #79
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Perhaps the lesson here is that blockade running is dangerous.

    Who would have imagined?
    So was opposing apartheid segregation and fighting Nazi occupation.

    Full respect to the bravery of those on the ship, may many more take their place.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #80
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    So was opposing apartheid segregation and fighting Nazi occupation.

    Full respect to the bravery of those on the ship, may many more take their place.
    Your issue, then, is with the blockade in general, rather than this individual incident?

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