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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    They had every right to attack them. they were being barred from delivering aid to Gaza - which is not under Israeli adminsitration - and the Israeli troops invaded a flotilla which was in itnernational waters. Piracy, in other words.
    Whether the Israelis have a right to search a foreign vessel is debatable. But the activists cannot resort to extreme mob violence and expect the soldiers to not defend their lives with force.

    The activists responded violently out of anger and outrage, not out of fear and concern for their own safety. It cannot be compared to a piracy scenario.

    The situation was unfortunate, but the victims were not blameless.

  2. #62
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post

    The activists responded violently out of anger and outrage, not out of fear and concern for their own safety. It cannot be compared to a piracy scenario.

    The situation was unfortunate, but the victims were not blameless.
    How in hell do you know what they responded out of?

    And how would they be to blame for defending themselves in an attack in international waters?
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    How in hell do you know what they responded out of?
    It's easy to infer.

    And how would they be to blame for defending themselves in an attack in international waters?
    Their safety were not at risk from the soldiers. No one would have died if the activists did not respond with deadly force.

  4. #64
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    If you think all those things it confirms that I really am wasting my time talking to you.
    In other words, you think the issue is black and white, and people who disagree with you are either stupid, ignorant, or evil. Okay, then.

  5. #65
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    It's easy to infer.
    In other words, you don't know, but would prefer to attribute a belligerent state of mind to one party, where fear is as/more reasonable and likely an inference. These are people who protest what they deem the heavy-handedness of IDF, after all.



    Their safety were not at risk from the soldiers. No one would have died if the activists did not respond with deadly force.
    Ok, Ms. Cleo.
    So they are to blame for lacking a crystal ball and possibly expecting the worst from people they believe to be heavy-handed aggressors. In international waters.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
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  6. #66
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Their safety were not at risk from the soldiers. No one would have died if the activists did not respond with deadly force.
    How do you know?

    And secondly, why should they peacefully lie back and let the Israelis invade their ship in international waters when they had no authority wehatsoever to do so and which posed no threat at all to the Israelis?

    And thirdly, are you saying the Israelis could not have protected themselves in any other way than by shooting with live ammunition?

    And then, how do you explain that they kept on shooting to kill 9 people and carried on shooting even after a white flag had been raised and there was no mroe rsistance (check the live video of events I psoted on page 1)
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

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  7. #67
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In other words, you think the issue is black and white, and people who disagree with you are either stupid, ignorant, or evil. Okay, then.
    You have to have very limited powers of deduction, or be very ignorant of events, or be very biased, not to tell that there was deliberate and premeditated slaughter of civilians in January 2009. Your avoidance of any and all concrete questions and constant recourse to abstractions is proof enough of this. The more sophisticated Zionists tend to admit those things.

    Then again, coming from someone who thinks the 1982 Honduran Constitution is sacred and who thinks FPTP is more democratic than PR, this level of counterintuitiveness doesn't surprise me.

    FWIW I don't think you are evil or stupid or even dislikeable guy, I just think you're a politics student who believes all that rational choice crap you got taught.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #68
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    How do you know?

    And secondly, why should they peacefully lie back and let the Israelis invade their ship in international waters when they had no authority wehatsoever to do so and which posed no threat at all to the Israelis?

    And thirdly, are you saying the Israelis could not have protected themselves in any other way than by shooting with live ammunition?

    And then, how do you explain that they kept on shooting to kill 9 people and carried on shooting even after a white flag had been raised and there was no mroe rsistance (check the live video of events I psoted on page 1)
    Since you're trying to be objective, I'll bite.

    a) Did the Israelis know that the ship posed no threat before they invaded it? Could they have mistakenly thought that the ship was attempting to smuggle contraband across a blockade?

    b) What exactly are the regulations (UN? Israeli? other?) regarding International Waters?

    c) If an aggressor is attempting to use lethal force against you, there is a good chance that you will need to defend yourself with lethal force. Is this not what you learn in the military-- to match force with force?

    d) How do you know there was no resistance after the ship raised the white flag?


    For what it's worth, I think that Israel has made some pretty big mistakes in the past, and it's certainly possible that some mistakes were made in this scenario, but to call it a slaughter or massacre is blowing things way out of proportion.

  9. #69
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    a) Did the Israelis know that the ship posed no threat before they invaded it?
    They had it completely surrounded and immobile for days, so I'd say yes.

    But out of interest, on what gorunds could you even dispute that the ship posed a threat int he first place to even justify blocking it (not to mention that Israel has no legal authority to police Gaza's borders)?

    b) What exactly are the regulations (UN? Israeli? other?) regarding International Waters?
    It means they were otuside of Israel's jurisdiction as a state, therefore they don't have the right to enforce their law there. Even the pro-Zionist BBC is reporting that Israel was in contravention of Internaitonal Maritime Law so there sin't much debate there.

    c) If an aggressor is attempting to use lethal force against you, there is a good chance that you will need to defend yourself with lethal force. Is this not what you learn in the military? To match force with force?
    The aggressors were the IDF, who were invading someone else's ship. If you claim to value objectivity, you should surely have to admit that.

    However responding with live ammunition to being beaten isn't "mathcing force with force". I responded to that point already.

    How do you know there was no resistance after the ship raised the white flag?
    Resistance with what? The Israeli had already shot a number of people with guns. The people ont he ship had no guns. WTF do you think they were "resisting" with?

    But logic aside, you can always watch the video I posted mid-way down page 1.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #70
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    They had it completely surrounded and immobile for days, so I'd say yes.

    But out of interest, on what gorunds could you even dispute that the ship posed a threat int he first place to even justify blocking it (not to mention that Israel has no legal authority to police Gaza's borders)?

    It means they were otuside of Israel's jurisdiction as a state, therefore they don't have the right to enforce their law there. Even the pro-Zionist BBC is reporting that Israel was in contravention of Internaitonal Maritime Law so there sin't much debate there.
    If the ship were attempting to supply terrorists with weapons, keeping it surrounded and immobile doesn't mean anything. You would have to search the ship to know.

    I agree that Israel did not have the authority to invade the ship as a police action, but they do have a right to defend themselves against aggressors as a military action. I disagree with a complete blockade from a humanitarian perspective, but I don't know what UN regulations are regarding those kinds of things.

    The aggressors were the IDF, who were invading someone else's ship. If you claim to value objectivity, you should surely have to admit that.

    However responding with live ammunition to being beaten isn't "mathcing force with force". I responded to that point already.

    Resistance with what? The Israeli had already shot a number of people with guns. The people ont he ship had no guns. WTF do you think they were "resisting" with?
    Six people beating on one with the intent to kill is lethal force. Regardless of what you think about the scenario, there's no way to tell based on the videos you posted whether or not lethal force after the white flag had been raised was justified. Perhaps someone will perform a detailed investigation into the matter, and we'll find out.

    But logic aside, you can always watch the video I posted mid-way down page 1.
    I watched them all.

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