User Tag List

First 4567816 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 341

  1. #51
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Yes to the first (in addition to the blockade), sometimes to the second. I'm arguing that black and white presentations of this conflict (or rather, this aspect of the larger conflict) are erroneous. And your "historical facts" are disputed. If you want to know my essential opinion on the matter of Israel/Palestine, read my recent post in the "The Israel/Palestine Obsession is Racist" thread.
    Who disputes those historical facts? They have 1.) been empirically proven and 2.) admitted by by many of those involved*. But more to the point do you dispute them? Because if you want to argue them I'll happilly oblige.

    I would say justifying a bombing raid on Gaza in response to some missiles is pretty "black and white" - Israel kills many more times Palestians every year than Hamas manages to kill Israelis with missiles; and the Zionists were clansing Palestine of the Arabs long before Hamas existed.

    But yet to yous the right to a "majority Jewish state" outwieghs the right of millions of people to live in their homeland.

    How much more "black and white" does it need to be?

    *Though regarding the case of the breaking of the ceasefire on November 4th 2008, there is no dispute whatsoever, as Israel itself confirmed the raid - showing you simply haven't done your research.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #52
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    ...How much more "black and white" does it need to be?
    Like I said, read the post that I referenced. Btw, last I heard there were only 9 killed in the raid, not 30.

    Edit: and like I vaguely remembered, the Gazans had violated the cease-fire several times between June and November:

    List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 05-31-2010 at 05:36 PM. Reason: self-evident

  3. #53
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Like I said, read the post that I referenced.
    Can't you do better than referencing your own post?

    No offence but why would I subject myself to lines and lines of your abstractions bereft of basic historical context and facts, when your opinions stated here, once I drew them out, have been clear enough, and correspond to what I claimed they were?

    Yes you're right I misread at the time and posted 30 instead of the "at least 16" which Israeli sources were claiming at the time (though it looks like it's less).

    And by the way you don't want to dispute Israel's breaking of the ceasefire in November 2008 then, or the dleiberate use of collective punishment on the whole population of Gaza?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #54
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    No offence but why would I subject myself to lines and lines of your abstractions bereft of basic historical context and facts, when your opinions stated here, once I drew them out, have been clear enough, and correspond to what I claimed they were?
    If you don't want my answer, then why ask the question? My opinions, while far different from your own, are a bit more nuanced than you seem to think.

    As for Nov.4, 2008, I already said that Gaza broke the cease-fire several times before Israel did (though you may have read my post before the edit).

  5. #55
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    [QUOTE=lowtech redneck;1184851]
    If you don't want my answer, then why ask the question?
    To draw out what is significant, not what you would wish to present.

    I would like to debate with you in better faith than that, but my experience shows me that this only leads to very technical points (see our debates on Honduras and the UK elections) and entirely getting away from the wider question.

    As for Nov.4, 2008, I already said that Gaza broke the cease-fire several times before Israel did (though you may have read my post before the edit)
    And so had Israel, more times than Palestinian groups, in fact. However Hamas did not break the ceasefire at any point, as even the Israelis admit. And the justification for the November 4th attack was, therefore, not rockets being fired.

    How about the collective punishment and premeditated slaughter of civilians, do you deny that?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #56
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    [QUOTE=tcda;1184885]
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post

    To draw out what is significant, not what you would wish to present.

    How about the collective punishment and premeditated slaughter of civilians, do you deny that?
    1.) And what do you think is significant that I have chosen not to present?

    2.) Prolonged "collective punishment" (which you do not seem to object to in relation to Hamas missile strikes) for its own sake is wrong, but blockades geared toward restricting the importation of military materials into Gaza is reasonable. "Premeditated slaughter of civilians" (which you again seem not to object to in relation to Hamas missile strikes) is wrong, and is neither official nor standard Israeli policy (unlike Hamas).

    The Palestinians Are Not The Same Thing As The Rebel Alliance, Jackass lyrics by Atom And His Package

  7. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    1,650

    Default

    Murder is a strong term. Some of the activists did respond to the boarding by violently attacking the soldiers. Violent situations tend to escalate out of control. I think more information is needed.

  8. #58
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Murder is a strong term. Some of the activists did respond to the boarding by violently attacking the soldiers. Violent situations tend to escalate out of control. I think more information is needed.
    They had every right to attack them. they were being barred from delivering aid to Gaza - which is not under Israeli adminsitration - and the Israeli troops invaded a flotilla which was in itnernational waters. Piracy, in other words.

    The people on the ship rightly responded by defending it. Parachuting a load of IDF agents onto the ship is hardly a peaceful act is it?

    and all that taken into account, they chose to go on with live ammunition instead of just using tasers, rubber bullets or tear gas (none of which I owuld have supproted anyway but you see my point).

    So all in all, a clear case of state terrorism.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #59
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Who is surprised?

    In any case Obama could discipline Israel immediately if he wanted to, regardless of Netanyahu cancelling a meeting, because they are dependant on US funding. But he has no real wish to, because they share too many common interests. Despite some cosmetic changes, Obama has continued neo-con foreign policy in every significant way.

    This calls for my old avatar:

    I don't care for Obama, but I think you're mistaken here, tcda. His administration has the most progressive Middle East policy of any US president in over a generation. There hasn't been a sea change overnight, but they've really made some progress in holding Israel accountable and sending messages that things like this aren't acceptable. It's one of the few obvious differences between Obama and Bush II.
    i just want to be a sweetheart

  10. #60
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    [QUOTE=lowtech redneck;1184917][QUOTE=tcda;1184885]

    2.) Prolonged "collective punishment" (which you do not seem to object to in relation to Hamas missile strikes) for its own sake is wrong, but blockades geared toward restricting the importation of military materials into Gaza is reasonable. "Premeditated slaughter of civilians" (which you again seem not to object to in relation to Hamas missile strikes) is wrong, and is neither official nor standard Israeli policy (unlike Hamas).
    Oh really. So you think the slaughter of thousands of civilians, and the bombing of shcools, universities, homes, 8 hospitals and 26 clinics, in 2009 by a miltiary force which has the satellite technology to identify every building and pick out any individual in Gaza, was accidental? You think it wasn't premeditated at all but just a "self-defence" reaction to Hamas's paltry amateur rockets, and that they were actually trying to limit civilian casualties?


    And you believe Israel has a right to starve the Gaza Strip into submission for daring to democratically elect Hamas in response to decades of ethnic cleansing, rather than, perhaps dealing with the causes of that radicalization and desperation?

    If you think all those things it confirms that I really am wasting my time talking to you.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-17-2009, 06:45 PM
  2. The Murder of God
    By Mole in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 12-14-2008, 02:56 AM
  3. Do you make a lot of T.V. references in conversations?
    By ladypinkington in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-27-2008, 12:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO