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  1. #41
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree;
    Whether in either case they were intending to actually use them, or simply blackmailing the US (in particular) into supporting them by the threat of their use (as appears to have been a long-standing Israeli policy with their nuclear program) is less clear; but they seem fully prepared to contemplate the possibility. I think it's dangerous to give them more than their due here: no-one knows for sure what they'd have done in these incidents without US intervention, and the fact that they are prepared to go so far in itself speaks volumes about their attitude.
    Fair enough. I'll have to read up on these before I can speak to them on more authority To be clear - I'm not claiming Israel is a nuclear saint, only that I think other counties in the same position would have done worse and more openly.

  2. #42
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Gaza is an open-air prison and one of the poorest places on earth. And 2/3 of all kids in Gaza suffer from PTSD and/or deafness due to Israeli bombing raids.
    Israel has crossed the line several times, but what exactly do you propose Israel do in response to constant missile barrages from Hamas?

  3. #43
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Israel has crossed the line several times, but what exactly do you propose Israel do in response to constant missile barrages from Hamas?
    Sorry what? Who broke the 4 month ceasefire leading to the last massive assault on Gaza in January 2009? I think you'll find it was Israel, not Hamas, who broke the ceasefire on November 4th 2008. Look it up.

    And what did the killings today have to do with "missile barrage from Hamas"?

    and your post doesn't make sense, how can you say "they've crossed the line but what do you expect them to do?" Either their actions are justified, or they aren't, which is it?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #44
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    and your post doesn't make sense, how can you say "they've crossed the line but what do you expect them to do?" Either their actions are justified, or they aren't, which is it?
    They've crossed the line in the course of pursuing a rational defense strategy; some of those instances were gratuitous, others were accidental and/or unavoidable byproducts of military operations. The issue is further muddied by the Hamas practice of using Palestinian civilians as human shields/propaganda tools.

  5. #45
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    They've crossed the line in the course of pursuing a rational defense strategy; some of those instances were gratuitous, others were accidental and/or unavoidable byproducts of military operations. The issue is further muddied by the Hamas practice of using Palestinian civilians as human shields/propaganda tools.
    This is pure obfuscation. What does this have to do with the 2009 massacre, which was the result of the Israeli breaking of the ceasefire, not Hamas missiles, and where a deliberate strategy of punishiong civilians was pursued? or with the attack on a ship of civilians delivering aid, in international waters, which had surrendered? do you defend these actions or not?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #46
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    This is pure obfuscation. What does this have to do with the 2009 massacre, which was the result of the Israeli breaking of the ceasefire, not Hamas missiles, and where a deliberate strategy of punishiong civilians was pursued? or with the attack on a ship of civilians delivering aid, in international waters, which had surrendered? do you defend these actions or not?
    Refer to the part of your post which I originally quoted; I was addressing the Gaza blockade and periodic raids in general. I have not yet investigated this most recent incident, so I have no definitive opinion as of yet, but from what I've gathered so far the attack took place in international waters, so the burden is on Israel to prove the legitimacy of their actions, not on the protesters. When I have the time to dig through the evidence, I will do so. So far, it looks like this is a particularly gratuitous act on the part of Israel.

    Edit: as for the rest, my preliminary research only shows a "he said/she said" situation between Hamas and the IDF in what has been an ongoing conflict where I have no particular reason to trust the honesty of either side.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 05-31-2010 at 04:39 PM. Reason: self-evident

  7. #47
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
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    You do my work for me.
    If multiculturalism is true, then anything goes. General Napier, during the British administration of India, remarked that
    You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.
    Jihadists can follow their customs. And the Western countries will follow theirs.

    Radicals are just idiots who think they get cosmic brownie points for rooting against the home team.

  8. #48
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Edit: as for the rest, my preliminary research only shows a "he said/she said" situation between Hamas and the IDF in what has been an ongoing conflict where I have no particular reason to trust the honesty of either side.
    So what are you arguing?

    That Israel has the right to carry out raids on Gaza because Hamas fires rockets at Israel and that if Israel kills civilians this is because Hamas uses human shields?

    but yet you ignore that the January 2009 massacre was the result of an escalation after Israel, not Hamas, broke the 4 month ceasefire, on 4th November 2008, and that there was a deliberate policy of punishing civilians.

    Both of these are historical fact not hearsay, and Hamas isn ot behind any of these claims.

    Your contribution as far as I can see is simply generalities, abstractions and obfuscation.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #49
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHBowden View Post
    Jihadists can follow their customs. And the Western countries will follow theirs.
    Ah, coherent as ever I see, Bowden. "The evil Jihadists and their aid flotilla's, up against the honourable western custom of High Seas piracy and mass murder".
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #50
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    That Israel has the right to carry out raids on Gaza because Hamas fires rockets at Israel and that if Israel kills civilians this is because Hamas uses human shields?
    Yes to the first (in addition to the blockade), sometimes to the second. I'm arguing that black and white presentations of this conflict (or rather, this aspect of the larger conflict) are erroneous. And your "historical facts" are disputed. If you want to know my essential opinion on the matter of Israel/Palestine, read my recent post in the "The Israel/Palestine Obsession is Racist" thread.

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