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  1. #311
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    They are both Fascists who don't seem to have a true experience of what Israeli society really looks like.
    They don't support Israel, they support Liberman's ideology. That's very different and you know it. Do you think BNP hooligans are truly representative of modern British society?

    Why are you using sophisms and sophistry once again?
    What sophistry? I can only answer the arguments raised. It's not my fault if all the supposed "moderate" Zionists out there are strangely quiet onthis issue, or happen to sound exactly like the right-wing Zionists on this issue.

    I didn't say they are the only variant of Zionism. But they are speaking the thoughts of an important, possibly majority view within Zionism.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #312
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    My Parliament supports Israel because

    • Israel is the last best defence for Jews;

    • Israel is a member of the United Nations;

    • Israel is a democracy.
    A "democracy" based on the exile and disenfranchisement of the great majority indigenous population.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #313
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    A "democracy" based on the exile and disenfranchisement of the great majority indigenous population.
    Sure, all democracies are imperfect, even mine. But democracies do provide the opportunity to improve.

  4. #314
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post

    I didn't say they are the only variant of Zionism. But they are speaking the thoughts of an important, possibly majority view within Zionism.
    Yisrael Beytenou only makes very average scores (their best score was 12%) compared to any other far right party in Europe. You can't call that a "majority".
    Once again, what you're doing is exactly like saying Nick Griffin is expressing "the thoughts of an important, possibly majority view within Great Britain".

    It is really true?

    So yes, it's sophistry and you know it.

    ---

    Be realistic, for Marx's sake!

    Nazifying the Israeli people will get you to nowhere. Just like Nazifying the Arab people (as a whole) will also get us to nowhere: the issue is exactly similar.
    The real world is more complex than the simplistic views you seem to have of it.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #315
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    But democracies do provide the opportunity to improve.
    And so far, until proven wrong, they're the only political system which is able to do that.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #316
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Yisrael Beytenou only makes very average scores (their best score was 12%) compared to any other far right party in Europe. You can't call that a "majority".
    Once again, what you're doing is exactly like saying Nick Griffin is expressing "the thoughts of an important, possibly majority view within Great Britain".

    It is really true?

    So yes, it's sophistry and you know it.

    ---

    Be realistic, for Marx's sake!

    Nazifying the Israeli people will get you to nowhere. Just like Nazifying the Arab people (as a whole) will also get us to nowhere: the issue is exactly similar.
    The real world is more complex than the simplistic views you seem to have of it.
    I'm not "nazifying" anyone nor did I call anyone a fascist.

    But perhaps you could tell me concretely which of the views expressed by Not Me and IlyaK are not found within mainstream Israeli politics?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #317
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sure, all democracies are imperfect, even mine. But democracies do provide the opportunity to improve.
    Yes, 60 years of "democratic improvement" in Palestine looks like this:



    Abstract generalities are never much use. Living standards increased under many dictatorships (which is by no means a defence of dictatorship just inc ase someone will try to twist my words), they clearly have not for the Palestinians under Israeli "democracy".
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #318
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post

    Abstract generalities are never much use.
    Indeed. But the maps you showed are deliberately deceptive and misleading, because they make abstraction of reality and mix several factors that shouldn't be compared. When you see what they paint in green or white, they're really comparing apples and oranges. Jewish settlements aren't the same than Israeli lands, and not the same than "occupied territories".
    For instance, if the southern tip of this land belongs to Israel, it's because the local Bedouin tribes chose to ally with it rather than with Arab troops. And as a matter of fact, in 1947, the most densely populated "Jewish settlements" was in Jerusalem: how could a single white dot represent dozens of thousands of Jews? And furthermore, they weren't settlers, since you had a continuous Jewish presence here during the last millenias. Jewish populations tend to be urban rather than rural.

    Also, it doesn't take into account the fact that several million Arabs live in Israel, and that there had been several wars fought not against Palestinians, but against the neighbouring countries. Wars that Israel weren't supposed to win. It doesn't take into account Oslo accords, the fact that Cisjordania has never been annexed so far as well, and that the law is not the same there (a military occupation is not the same than direct annexion or rule of law). And many, many other subtle factors like this.

    So once again, it's propaganda. Will you deny this obvious fact?

    Look: even the title of this thread is based on a lie, on a crude exaggeration!

    Ideology is a form of madness.

    Once gain, you're not realistic, and out of touch with physical political context.

    Frankly, Tcda: you have no idea what is really going on there, haven't you?
    Have you ever been there, talk to people there (both Jews and Arabs)?
    Because it doesn't seem very likely.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #319
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Indeed. But the maps you showed are deliberately deceptive and misleading, because they make abstraction of reality and mix several factors that shouldn't be compared. When you see what they paint in green or white, they're really comparing apples and oranges. Jewish settlements aren't the same than Israeli lands, and not the same than "occupied territories".

    For instance, if the southern tip of this land belongs to Israel, it's because the local Bedouin tribes chose to ally with it rather than with Arab troops. And as a matter of fact, in 1947, the most densely populated "Jewish settlements" was in Jerusalem: how could a single white dot represent dozens of thousands of Jews?

    Also, it doesn't take into account the fact that several million Arabs live in Israel, and that there had been several wars fought not against Palestinians, but against the neighbouring countries. Wars that Israel weren't supposed to win. It doesn't take into account Oslo accords, the fact that Cisjordania has never been annexed so far as well, and that the law is not the same there (a military occupation is not the same than direct annexion or rule of law). And many, many other subtle factors like this.

    Look: even the title of this thread is based on a lie, on a crude exaggeration!

    Ideology is a form of madness.

    Once gain, you're not realistic, and out of touch with physical political context.

    Frankly, Tcda: you have no idea what is really going on there, haven't you?
    Have you ever been there, talk to people there (both Jews and Arabs)?
    Because it doesn't seem very likely.
    Yes, Arabs live in Israel, in a state where they are second class citizens and which is committed to a Jewish majority. Everyone knows this.

    The map illustrates visibly that Israel is an expansionist state based on the dispossession and ethnic cleansing of the great majority of the natives of Palestine. Do you really think any of your quibbling changes that? (as if a map alone could be a complete analysis rather than effective form of showing a general point). I mean what exactly is the relevance of the fact that before 1948 it shows Jewish settlements, and afterwards, shows Israeli lands? What does this change? You're just stating a truism.

    And you mention the Oslo Accords. What about them? How do they in any way support your "argument" (whatever that may be)...?

    No I haven't been to Palestine. But I can find enough people who have, Palestinians, Jews and visitors, who agree with me.

    Likewise it's funny how you think you don't have an ideology. when inf act your assumptions against my "ideology" are in fact...ideological. But you simply have the liberal-democratic concietedness that thinks that their ideology is simply "natural truths" rather than a very unnatural set of assumptions based on a very specific period of time. However I made these points to you before and you ignored them, so I expect you to do so again.

    Also you are jumping from point to point: I still asked you - which of the views expressed by Not Me and IlyaK are outside of the Israeli mainstream?

    And in any case: are you going to justify the creation of Israel, its continued existence, the seige of Gaza, or the slaughter of the activists on the Flotilla? Or just make general accusations against my character based on narrow empirical points which I at no point contradicted (which is quite boring and irrelevant and of no interest to anyone reading).

    And finally, the whole point of the controversial map was to aks yourself and Victor, the two liberal democrats: how has Israeli "democracy" led to any "improvement" for the Palestinians?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #320
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Yes, Arabs live in Israel, in a state where they are second class citizens and which is committed to a Jewish majority. Everyone knows this.
    No, this is not true. Arab citizens are not "second class" of any kind, since Israel is a working democracy where rule of law applies everywhere, whether you like it or not.
    Of course, like I already said, this doesn't mean everything is perfect: it's far from perfect. But the situation of Israeli Arabs is not that bad, especially when you compare their fate with what several other minorities endure in Western democracies.

    The map illustrates visibly that Israel is an expansionist state based on the dispossession and ethnic cleansing of the great majority of the natives of Palestine. Do you really think any of your quibbling changes that?
    Once again, it's false. There has been such a thing as "ethnic cleansing" only in 1947, and almost nothing else after (only a few places around Jerusalem, but it's very limited). Are you aware that the overwhelming majority of Jewish families had been "ethnically cleansed too" in their native countries? And it includes Arab countries as well. As a matter of fact, Arab countries have expelled twice more Jews than Israel expelled Palestinians.

    Israel is NOT an "expansionist state", as its border haven't changed much after its creation in 1948. And it's still a ridiculously small country. On the other hand it is a paranoid, militaristic democracy.

    So you see: responsibilities are much more shared and complex than the simplistic rant you made.

    I mean what exactly is the relevance of the fact that before 1948 it shows Jewish settlements, and afterwards, shows Israeli lands? What does this change? You're just stating a truism.
    No I don't. The manipulation here is much more subtle, since "Arabs" could also be considered as "settlers" then, since the large majority of their families only came to Palestine between 1836-1948. For instance, Arafat was born in Cairo. Only Christian Arab families and Samaritans can be considered as "true" natives.
    And as soon as 1854, the two third of Jerusalem inhabitants were already Jewish (ask Karl Marx: he was there).

    And so on and so on.

    No I haven't been to Palestine. But I can find enough people who have, Palestinians, Jews and visitors, who agree with me.
    Are you aware that 99% of the Jews living on this planet are Zionist?
    Yes, if you want you can find some who don't agree with the continued existence of this state (usually the left medias are very fond of them), but do they really matter, realistically speaking?
    The truth is that those Jews represent nothing, or almost nothing.

    But if you want to obtain peace, you can forgive them.

    Of course, it doesn't mean 99% of the Jews living on this planet agree with current Israeli policies. I don't for instance. But that's another debate.

    Also you are jumping from point to point: I still asked you - which of the views expressed by Not Me and IlyaK are outside of the Israeli mainstream?
    The fact you're asking is just showing us how incredibly biased you are against Israelis. It's nonsense.
    Do you really think that a large majority of Israeli citizens want every Arab citizen to get expelled from Israel????
    The truth is that like in any true democracy in the world, you have laws in Israel that condemn hate speech. And far right politicians have been often condemned by Israeli courts.

    You can forget all the ridiculous propaganda crap that puts irrelevant fascistic quotes in the mouth of Israeli leaders: once again, it's false, most of these quotes are false, do you know that?

    Are you aware that each year, several thousand Arabs migrate to Israel for political asylum, and can get naturalized as such a few years later?
    Just an example: if you were a Gay Arab, then Israel would really look like a safe heaven, believe me.
    You can also meet in Israel lots of Lebanese people whose families have fled the iron rule of Hezbollah. But you would know it if ever you had been there. QED.

    And in any case: [B]are you going to justify the creation of Israel, its continued existence,
    Yes, I think such a state has the right to exist, just as the Palestinians also have the same right to possess their own country.
    I know it can sound contradictory, but hey, History is sometimes contradictory. You just have to ackowledge that every side deserves respect, and share genuine rights over this much coveted land.

    However, this also means there can be no simple solution to this Gordian knot: that's why I don't like simplistic, populist or unrealistic demagogy. Such endless rants can only lead us to nowhere: you have to become more practical than idealistic.

    The question is not to reach an agreement based on "pure justice". Such a concept only exists in the dreams of totalitarian ideologies.
    No, the idea is much more modest: if Israelis and Palestinians can reach any kind of agreement that would make life less painful for both sides, then it should be signed.

    the seige of Gaza, or the slaughter of the activists on the Flotilla?
    This is precisely one of the current Israeli policies I don't agree with, amongst many others.
    However, dealing with the Hamas is.. well... complex too. It's a true totalitarian movement, and Gazaouis clearly don't deserve them.

    how has Israeli "democracy" led to any "improvement" for the Palestinians?
    And what have Arab countries done for their Jews?
    What have Arab countries done for Palestinians?

    Once again, it's not easy to answer to such simplistic questions, because you have to consider as well several outside factors working together. You can't ignore the political context of the whole Middle East, if you want to understand even some of the most basic facts here. The influences of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordania are tremendous.
    It's a global conflict, not a local one.

    It's impossible to please everybody (especially given the long history of hate on both sides), but it doesn't mean we should not strive to.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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