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  1. #301
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Your personal preference is irrelevant. It wasn't long ago when conquest was considered to be glorious.

    There are no moral absolutes when it come to international politics. If you refuse to compromise, then you must accept the "might is right" principle and stop complaining.
    Untrue. Plenty of regimes which rely on brute force have been brought down without "compromise" in the sense you mean it. What is needed is a coherent adequate strategy

    Appeal to the wider global opinion and mass movements against the inherent injustice of ones enemy is a key part of that strategy. It has helped the struggle against many forms of oppression.

    Just because I believe in the right to use force when fighting against oppression doesn't mean I believe "might is right" in general. "Using force" is simply a means, whether or not it is justified depends on the context, on the exact form it takes, and on the ends it is used for. Politics and war can't be reduced to a series of moral abstractions such as "either no force is justified ever or all force is always justified".

    For example, I argue that it's justified to resist with force when someone is forcing you into ghettoes and exile and stealing your land, but not when you are using force to take over someone's ship in international waters which is being used to deliver aid to a population which needs it.

    Says who?
    International law.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #302
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterk View Post
    Don't you people read ancient as well as current history? Every country on earth got its start by displacing an indigenous people. It's a law of human nature: You take the land and fight to keep it. If successful it's yours. Jews paid cash for the land they had when they formed Israel in 1948. The Arabs attacked and the law of human nature took effect.---- Is it that simple or is it simplistic?
    ah ok then. I look forward to you having house robbed tomorrow and your wife and kids taken away, and when you go to complain the police tell you "it's a law of human nature".

    Or do "laws of human nature" only apply to Arabs?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #303
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    We keep coming to the heart of the matter, which is that debate is irrelevant. Only action will decide matters now.
    And the reason the Palestinian movement appeals to international opinion is precisely for action and support in struggle against Israel. You cannot seperate ideology and action so arbitrarily.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #304
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    And the reason the Palestinian movement appeals to international opinion is precisely for action and support in struggle against Israel. You cannot seperate ideology and action so arbitrarily.
    Ideas are what drive actions, naturally; but the ideas alone are not sufficient at this point. It's time to march, if march is what you want to do.

  5. #305
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Ideas are what drive actions, naturally; but the ideas alone are not sufficient at this point. It's time to march, if march is what you want to do.
    I don't agree with the first part, in fact I think there is a dialectical relationship between ideas and aciton, but never mind.

    In any case, there were many large marches around the world, actually.

    Maybe you just need to try different news channels to the ones you currently watch.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #306
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't agree with the first part, in fact I think there is a dialectical relationship between ideas and aciton, but never mind.

    In any case, there were many large marches around the world, actually.

    Maybe you just need to try different news channels to the ones you currently watch.
    I have watched perhaps ten hours of broadcast or cable television in the past year, and that's not likely to increase in the coming year. In any event...

    I don't mean march as in 'protest march.' I mean march as in the way soldiers march.

  7. #307
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I have watched perhaps ten hours of broadcast or cable television in the past year, and that's not likely to increase in the coming year. In any event...

    I don't mean march as in 'protest march.' I mean march as in the way soldiers march.
    oh ok. so you're trolling the thread again?

    The thing is I can work out why people like IlyaK and Not Me genuinely support Israel , and want to defend it. I can't work out your reasons for keeping on repeating the same circular arguments though. Is it just about your pride because you were proved wrong?

    If so I'd say please, take it to another thread. If you think this issue should not be debated, then why not simply leave the thread after having stated that?

    It's just that I would rather keep this thread on topic.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #308
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    oh ok. so you're trolling the thread again?

    The thing is I can work out why people like IlyaK and Not Me genuinely support Israel , and want to defend it.
    They are both Fascists who don't seem to have a true experience of what Israeli society really looks like.
    They don't support Israel, they support Liberman's ideology. That's very different and you know it. Do you think BNP hooligans are truly representative of modern British society?

    Why are you using sophisms and sophistry once again?

    I can't work out your reasons for keeping on repeating the same circular arguments though. Is it just about your pride because you were proved wrong?
    Same question for you?
    Are you someone full of pride, Tcda, or is it your ideology that is blinding you?
    Or are you selectively deaf, just like Israeli and Palestinian politicans are most of the time?

    If so I'd say please, take it to another thread. If you think this issue should not be debated, then why not simply leave the thread after having stated that?

    It's just that I would rather keep this thread on topic.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #309
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Your personal preference is irrelevant.

    There are no moral absolutes when it come to international politics.
    My Parliament supports Israel because

    • Israel is the last best defence for Jews;

    • Israel is a member of the United Nations;

    • Israel is a democracy.

  10. #310
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    Fascist? Please. I support Israel because it's a nexus of intelligent thinkers and innovators. I'd say the same if the Palestinians started to attack Japan, or Silicon Valley/Wall Street, etc...
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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