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  1. #291
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Ok, we just keep going round with the circular arguments.
    We keep coming to the heart of the matter, which is that debate is irrelevant. Only action will decide matters now.

  2. #292
    Senior Member Willfrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The land was conquered and now it's occupied; what's stopping you from taking it back?

    I mean, aside from the fact that the Zionist state has kicked the asses of everyone they've ever met on a battlefield?
    Ugh, I agree. This is just one incindent to add to a laundry list of incidents. There have been atrocities on both sides of the conflict and it makes it hard to feel sympathetic to either side.
    ...Then I ducked my head and the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark;
    And a woman screamed, and the lights went up, and two men lay stiff and stark...

  3. #293
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post


    As for the other Palestinians who never left, the vast majority had their movement restricted and land stolen despite Israeli legislation declaring them the owners; for example, Al-Ghabisiyya and Iqrit citizens. At the time all an Isreali-Arab had to do to get their citizenship striped is enter a country deemed an enemy state. For example, if an Isreali-Arab went to visit a terminally ill relative in the West Bank or Gaza Strip they would have their citizenship revoked.

    Oberon, if a Bedouin were to read you comments above, I am more than convinced they would think it was some sort of sick twisted joke since they are without doubt the most loyal group to Israel but the worse treated citizens in Israel. The Bedouin community of Israel is like what the Gurkha community are to the British, even if they fight for their adopted country they are still treated worse than the lowest of the low of the 'indigenous'. If it wasn't so tragic the hypocrite's would be funny, and that is coming from a Briton.

    This is propaganda, my dear Falcarius. You're very, very far from the truth.

    You have probably never met those Bedouins face to face. I did.

    Several polls have shown that a large majority of Arab israeli citizens don't want to become Palestinian again is such a state was to be created in the area. They vote at every election, they can own land, and the law is the same for all since Israel is a living democracy that has adopted Rechtstaat and "rule of law". And the economical gap between them and their Jewish compatriots is very tiny, much more than the one you have between Maghrebians and Europeans in France, for instance. And even if nothing is perfect (especially with the likes of Liberman in the Knesset), the quality of life in Israel is incredibly better than in any neighbouring country: it's a no brainer.

    Of course you should not confuse this rather enviable fate and the one endured by Arabs in Cisjordania and Gaza. As a matter of fact, this deep feeling of frustration makes this situation even more painful to endure for them, just because they do not live on the right side of the wall.

    What annoys me most about the Palestinians/Israeli conflict, is that every person seems to have something to say about it, even if they do not know anything tangible or real. It's mass hysteria. It's propaganda everywhere, on every side. And when you have a genuine fact, it's almost always grossly exaggerated: see for instance the title of this thread; the real body count was 9, not 30. And you can't say the activists on this so-called "peace flotilla" were so peaceful, since several Tsahal commandos were severely injured -two of them, very seriously- (Israel Navy commandos: Gaza flotilla activists tried to lynch us - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News). The real world is always more complex than blunt Ideology: Hannah Arendt warned us several times of this.

    It's almost impossible here to make a rational discussion, since people are encouraged to take side rather than to think with their head. It's a subject where passion always wins against reason. And this is very unfortunate since to make peace, both sides are required to become reasonable once again.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #294
    Member peterk's Avatar
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    Don't you people read ancient as well as current history? Every country on earth got its start by displacing an indigenous people. It's a law of human nature: You take the land and fight to keep it. If successful it's yours. Jews paid cash for the land they had when they formed Israel in 1948. The Arabs attacked and the law of human nature took effect.---- Is it that simple or is it simplistic?

  5. #295
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterk View Post
    Don't you people read ancient as well as current history? Every country on earth got its start by displacing an indigenous people. It's a law of human nature: You take the land and fight to keep it. If successful it's yours. Jews paid cash for the land they had when they formed Israel in 1948. The Arabs attacked and the law of human nature took effect.---- Is it that simple or is it simplistic?
    Yes, it is a very simplistic explaination.

    History is the study of specific contexts, and specific histories. Unlike, of course, you believe like Hegel that History is a predictive science (I don't).
    Anyway, the history of Jews is rather unique. And so is the history of the Arab people, in another completely different way.

    You can't dismiss the context, and the respective stories each people has to tell: how they arrived here, and why. For instance, the majority of (very poor) Jews arrived there because they had no other political options left. No modern country wanted to accomodate them or give them visas, even when they were progromed or lynched right in the middle of their home towns. For Israel it was not a matter of who bought the land in 48, it was a matter of simple survival. So you have to hear and take into account every memory. In fact, this conflict persists because most leaders from both sides have decided to become selectively deaf.

    This land never was a tabula rasa. On the contrary, it is full of History.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #296
    Member peterk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Yes, it is a very simplistic explaination.

    History is the study of specific contexts, and specific histories. Unlike, of course, you believe like Hegel that History is a predictive science (I don't).
    Anyway, the history of Jews is rather unique. And so is the history of the Arab people, in another completely different way.

    You can't dismiss the context, and the respective stories each people has to tell: how they arrived here, and why. For instance, the majority of (very poor) Jews arrived there because they had no other political options left. No modern country wanted to accomodate them or give them visas, even when they were progromed or lynched right in the middle of their home towns. For Israel it was not a matter of who bought the land in 48, it was a matter of simple survival. So you have to hear and take into account each different kind of memory. In fact, this conflict persists because most leaders from both sides have decided to be selectively deaf.

    This land never was a tabula rasa. On the contrary, it is full of History.
    No land has been a tabula rasa for thousands of years for conquering peoples keep coming and going. I disagree with your statement comparing the leaders of both sides. Israel's leaders are concerned with survival, Arab leaders with destruction.

  7. #297
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterk View Post
    Israel's leaders are concerned with survival, Arab leaders with destruction.
    This isn't always true. Mahmoud Abbas clearly seems more preoccupied with the survival of his people than Hamas leaders.
    And so was Anwar El-Sadat.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    This isn't always true. Mahmoud Abbas clearly seems more preoccupied with the survival of his people than Hamas leaders.
    And so was Anwar El-Sadat.
    These people you talk about are Arabs and there are over a 100 million of them spread all over the Middle East. Survival is not an issue except for the Israelis who are cramped on a small parcel of land.

  9. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterk View Post
    Survival is not an issue except for the Israelis who are cramped on a small parcel of land.
    When your enemy has atom bombs, then survival can be an issue during the next war you wage against him.
    For instance, that's what El Sadat realized. The Arab world pressed for more hate, and more attacks against Israel, but he refused and chose to sign a fair treaty of peace instead, even if this decision was very unpopular in Egypt. He later paid this choice with his own life.
    But retrospectively, I suppose we can say he was more concerned with the long term survival, political and economic prosperity of his people when he chose peace.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Wrong again. I support the right to resist occupation, not the right to occupy someone else's country.
    Your personal preference is irrelevant. It wasn't long ago when conquest was considered to be glorious.

    There are no moral absolutes when it come to international politics. If you refuse to compromise, then you must accept the "might is right" principle and stop complaining.

    And in any case, the blockade is illegal
    Says who?

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