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Thread: Israeli murder of 30 Gaza activists in international waters

  1. #261
    psicobolche Array tcda's Avatar
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    That's debatable. But even if it was true, the Israelis could appeal
    to ancient history also.
    60 years ago when most of the population is living as refugees or in ghettoes, is a real problem. 2,000 years ago whent he majority of the Jewish population had never set foot in Palestine nor known anyone who had, is a fantasy.

    Not a hard difference to grasp I would think.

    Hamas is responsible for the civilian deaths. They should not use their own as human shields in a war.
    Where's your evidence for this claim that most civilians deahts are the result of Hamas using "human shields"?

    Also I can say Israel uses its "own" as human shields, by building settlements on the frontiers designed for its poorest citizens, or illegal settlements in Palestinian land.


    It's not about who's more valuable. It's about who has the choice. The Palestinians can stop the war by simply refraining from firing rockets into Israel.
    you got htis the wrong way round. Israel is the one occupying Palestine and ilelgally denying them the right to return to their country. Hamas only emerged after decades of Israeli occupation, and only became a significant force recently.

    the choice is Israel's, not the Palestinians. The Palestians are forced to resist by the ethnic cleansing carried out on them which has driven them to exile and poverty. Becuase of Israel's intransigence, their only choice is to fight it. Which they are right to do.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #262
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Then why express an opinion? Or even bother having one?

    what I don't get is, if the future is inevitable, why are so worried about me having an opposing view?
    Oh, I don't think the future is inevitable at all... I just think that there is no way in hell that you or anyone else, individually or collectively, are going to ever be able to convince the Israelis to hand you their heads. Because that is, in effect, what you seem to want.

  3. #263
    psicobolche Array tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What is your definition of "Zionist" anyway? You seem to have expanded the definition to include anyone who is not in complete (not to mention vehement) agreement with the Palestinian position.
    A Zionist is someone who believes the rightful homeland of the "Jewish nation" is in Palestine.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #264
    psicobolche Array tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    1) Chicken and egg problem about rockets vs. siege. When one side believes that might makes right, the other side has no choice but to oblige. If I'm going to keep punching you, you'll probably want to find a way to stop me from punching you, and if that means wrapping me up in a mattress pad so that I can't move my arms, so be it.

    2) Stolen land? Oh, you mean that was stolen from the Jews 2000 years ago by the Romans? Oh, right. If you're going to use that "stolen land" argument, then go back. Waaaay back.

    3) Double standard about valuing Jewish lives above Arab ones:

    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I don't care if it's politically incorrect to say so. Sure, both sides have their dreck. My father is Jewish and he's as big a deadbeat as I've personally ever seen or heard of and has made life for me and my mother as much a living hell as he could. Bernie Madoff ran a $50 billion Ponzi scheme. Orly Taitz is a nutcase birther.

    Yeah, those are all bad...but compare it to people like Mahmoud Ahmanutjob, Osama Bin Laden, and Hamas's Ismail Haniyeh. There's no contest. There's simply not a contest.

    As for preferring Israelis to Palestinians (or Arabs for that matter)...well gee, you have the nation with the highest Nobel laureates per capita, producers of some of the finest engineers and thinkers in the world, and generally, a second Silicon Valley in the middle east crammed into a country with less area than most American states.

    And you contrast that with...

    At best, a bunch of uneducated innocent people all herded around like sheep ready to be indoctrinated by dictators with a very finite timespan on their innocence of mind.

    And at worst, a bunch of terrorists training day in day out for another opportunity to attack Israeli civilians.

    In a perfect world, we could have some magical force sort out the Palestinians and evacuate all of the peace-hoping innocents and give them a bright and shiny future that they're deserving of, and smite all of the evildoers.

    But when the evildoers deliberately use innocents as human shields and who must be slain at all costs in order to save Israeli lives, we mourn the loss of innocent life in the collateral damage, whether through bombing or through siege.

    What the Palestinians need to know is that they'll achieve nothing through violence. If Martin Luther King tried to obtain equal rights for blacks through violence, the racist whites would have been far more justified in their segregative practices. Throughout history, had the side that used peaceful civil disobedience and peaceful resistance instead turned to violence and force, then the general populace would have been absolutely justified in drinking all of the kool-aid so to speak, because they'd have legitimate reasons to be afraid.

    Israelis have very legitimate reasons to be afraid of Palestinians because of the rockets. And therefore, the Israeli government has a very legitimate reason to blockade Gaza. I don't care how much some imbeciles on this board support the Palestinians' rights to forceful resistance. So long as they're attempting to resist forcefully, Israel has every right to blockade them, since they are in armed conflict.

    Basically, this blog post states it much better than I ever can (NOT a lawyer--my logic is statistical and quantitative, not verbal and legalese!)

    Opinio Juris

    Anyhow, the long and short of it:

    Israel and Hamas are in armed conflict. Hamas shoots rockets, Israel shoots a lot of other more badass stuff, etc...either way, there's a permanent state of armed conflict, and therefore a blockade is legal. Does it suck for the civilians? Hoo boy, does it ever.

    Too bad, though, because as debatable as the morality of the blockade is, it is technically legal. As for "supporting the Palestinians' right to resist by force", that's just ideological hoo-hah spouted by an ideologue. Because there's a logical consequence to that as well. Support the right to launch rockets at Israelis or even attack 19-22 year old conscripted soldiers, and you also support the right to murder those same attackers (logical consequence of war), and of the inevitable collateral damage that will follow (ditto).

    Of course, note that Hamas is deliberately attempting to maximize civilian casualties--on both sides. Hamas has no qualms about sacrificing the very Palestinians they claim to be fighting for just for a short-term PR stunt, and of course, want to kill as many Israelis as possible (whether civilian or not).

    If the Palestinians want the siege lifted and their lives to improve, they will lay down their arms. So long as the state of armed conflict perpetuates, Israel has legal rights to do a lot of things which are undoubtedly very horrible to civilian populations, but are an inevitable consequence of the actions it must take in order to defend her own civilian populations.

    And once again, if we're talking about moral high grounds, Israel is far higher than Hamas and Hezbollah here. If Israel had the same philosophy towards war as Hamas did (scour them all, and let god sort them out), we'd have no more Palestinians to speak of. F-15s and F-16s with napalm and white phosphorus bombs and M1 Abrams tanks with depleted uranium shells would reduce all of Gaza to a desolate wasteland in a matter of weeks.

    Though, frankly, IMO, this is what it takes to win wars. Ever since WW2, the world has become soft, and the Geneva Conventions are the ultimate evidence of that, I think. To win world war 2, the allies didn't just fight the German military--they also broke Germany's economy by wrecking rail lines and factories, and moreover, broke German will to fight by simply firebombing entire German cities, just to maximize body count and shatter morale of not only the German military, but to make the German people as a whole despair beyond any desire to fight anymore, but to simply curl up in a fetal position and wish it to end so they wouldn't be at risk of dying in the next bombing run.

    IMO, that was what won WW2--not necessarily military might alone, but to completely and utterly shatter all will to fight.

    Want peace in the middle east? Then the guttural, natural will to fight must be crushed. This has been done not too long ago in history. World leaders need to realize that sometimes, this may be necessary when your enemies are so indoctrinated by religion and fanatical dictators that they are beyond the reach of reason.
    TL;DR.

    But I read enough to gather that one more difference between us is that I don't support collective punishment of people simply because of the nationality and place they happen to have been born to (an accident of birth), and you do.

    You also claim some sort of "common identity" with Nobel Prize winners, as if a crass person like yourself had some claim to the intelligence of Albert Einstein just because you also happen to be Jewish. When ironically your views would have disgusted many of those people.

    All of this nationalism, racism, bigotry, makes you no different to the same people who have historically persecuted Jews.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #265
    psicobolche Array tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh, I don't think the future is inevitable at all... I just think that there is no way in hell that you or anyone else, individually or collectively, are going to ever be able to convince the Israelis to hand you their heads. Because that is, in effect, what you seem to want.
    I don't want to convince the "Israelis", because this is an abstraction. Nationalities are made up of classes.

    I want to see the Israeli state - institution of the Israeli ruling class - economcially and militarilly defeated. Hopefully with a section of the Israeli working class as allies.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #266
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't want to convince the "Israelis", because this is an abstraction. Nationalities are made up of classes.

    I want to see the Israeli state - institution of the Israeli ruling class - economcially and militarilly defeated. Hopefully with a section of the Israeli working class as allies.
    Oh, I get it. A Marxist... I should have realized from the beginning; it's not like you were keeping it a secret or anything.

    Hopefully your insurrectionists will be able to take the kibbutzim mostly intact; it'll be nice to assume control the collective farms while they're in good working order.

    And then the Palestinian leadership can resume its long tradition of forthright, transparent, and ethical governance, this time over the entire territory of the former Israel. You can relegate all the Hasidim to the erswhile refugee camps... that'll be fun.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    60 years ago when most of the population is living as refugees or in ghettoes, is a real problem. 2,000 years ago whent he majority of the Jewish population had never set foot in Palestine nor known anyone who had, is a fantasy.

    Not a hard difference to grasp I would think.



    Where's your evidence for this claim that most civilians deahts are the result of Hamas using "human shields"?

    Also I can say Israel uses its "own" as human shields, by building settlements on the frontiers designed for its poorest citizens, or illegal settlements in Palestinian land.




    you got htis the wrong way round. Israel is the one occupying Palestine and ilelgally denying them the right to return to their country. Hamas only emerged after decades of Israeli occupation, and only became a significant force recently.

    the choice is Israel's, not the Palestinians. The Palestians are forced to resist by the ethnic cleansing carried out on them which has driven them to exile and poverty. Becuase of Israel's intransigence, their only choice is to fight it. Which they are right to do.
    1) ROFL. Okay, so 60 years isn't too long ago, and 2000 years is. Tell you what, the Palestinians will be kept off of Israel for the next 2000 years. Will they still have claim to that land then? (If there'll be any place left for the Palestinians by then if they haven't forced Israel to blow them up wholesale). No, there is no difference. You want to claim rights of return, fine, then the Jews are returning to their rightful land that they were kicked off of and sent into a diaspora from--the land of Israel. Hate to cite the bible and all, but history corroborates the fact that Israel was the home of the Jews prior to the romans kicking them out. Yet you want to haggle your way around that. You can stop.

    2) The Palestinians are "right" to fight occupation. ROFL. Okay. Look, here's the straight and easy:

    Palestinians launch rockets. I don't care how "justified" they are here. But once those rockets are launched, or their children (whether civilian or military conscripts) murdered, they have every right to retaliate in full force. And I think we see what happens when that happens. Maybe an Israeli civilian dead--and 1000 Palestinians dead in return.

    Get it? Whether the Palestinians have a right to fight or not, it doesn't take a PhD mathematician to realize that 1 for 1000 is no tradeoff.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  8. #268
    Sniffles
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    Nations and class are not the same thing.

  9. #269
    psicobolche Array tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    2) The Palestinians are "right" to fight occupation. ROFL. Okay. Look, here's the straight and easy:

    Palestinians launch rockets. I don't care how "justified" they are here. But once those rockets are launched, or their children (whether civilian or military conscripts) murdered, they have every right to retaliate in full force.
    Nope, there's no moral equivalence between the occupier and the occupied nation.

    Regarding the forms of resistance: I didn't say I agree with the particular tactic of firing rockets at civilians (this is a very defensive, desperate and ineffective action which Israel hypes up for its own gains), I said they are right to resist in general.

    As for "trade-off": like I said before, it was Israel who broke the ceasefire in the run-up to the January 2009 attack, ofr example. In more general terms, Israel is the aggressor, it will continue to ethnically cleanse Palestine, regarrdless of whether the Palestinians fight back or sit down and take it. The Nakba was not a retaliation.

    The debate on what forms the resistance should take is one to be had within the Palestinian movement and those who support it.

    But externally I defend unconditionally their right to resist, and there will continue to be millions, tens of millions, of us who support action against Israel, just like there were with regards to apartheid South Africa. You appeal to military force, I appeal to the force of organized mass action.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #270
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    Okay, so you're doublespeaking out the wazoo here. You support the right of resistance by force.

    What kind of resistance then? Fighting the IDF directly? The Arab nations tried it and got collectively stomped.

    Twice.

    So, they don't do it anymore, because they're sissies.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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