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  1. #241
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Except that Israel blocks 80% of aid to Gaza.
    Tell them to stop trying to ship in weapons and ammo then.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  2. #242
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Tell them to stop trying to ship in weapons and ammo then.
    I won't tell them that, because Palestinians have a right ot resist the occupation of their country. Israel is the one out of line with the UN convention on human rights garuanteeing refugees the right to return to their land.

    However they also block basic bulding materials. I don't know about you but I am not in favour of collective punishment of civilian populations.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I won't tell them that, because Palestinians have a right ot resist the occupation of their country. Israel is the one out of line with the UN convention on human rights garuanteeing refugees the right to return to their land.

    However they also block basic bulding materials. I don't know about you but I am not in favour of collective punishment of civilian populations.
    So you are opposed to firing rockets into civilian populations.

  4. #244
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    I am totally in favor of punishing a civilian populace if its misbehaving and blowing up pizza shops and children with suicide bombers.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  5. #245
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    So you are opposed to firing rockets into civilian populations.
    Yes I am opposed to that. Though ironically most of those on here who moralize against that, have no worries imposing a seige on Gaza or keeping 5 million Palestinians in exile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    I am totally in favor of punishing a civilian populace if its misbehaving and blowing up pizza shops and children with suicide bombers.
    What about if it's living on stolen land and its state is responsible for a hundred more times civilian deaths every year, than your supposed Hamas terrorism? The only answer to your double-standards is that you value Jewish lives above Arab ones.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #246
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Yes I am opposed to that. Though ironically most of those on here who moralize against that, have no worries imposing a seige on Gaza or keeping 5 million Palestinians in exile.



    What about if it's living on stolen land and its state is responsible for a hundred more times civilian deaths every year, than your supposed Hamas terrorism? The only answer to your double-standards is that you value Jewish lives above Arab ones.
    In terms of politics? Hell yeah I do, Jews arent flying planes into buildings. Oh wait supposedly they are right? lol
    Ground control to Major Tom

  7. #247
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    In terms of politics? Hell yeah I do, Jews arent flying planes into buildings.
    I can't even be bothered with someone so stupid.

    Next.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #248
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    What about if it's living on stolen land and its state is responsible for a hundred more times civilian deaths every year, than your supposed Hamas terrorism? The only answer to your double-standards is that you value Jewish lives above Arab ones.
    I've said this before and it's still true: Israel isn't going to go away. No amount of Arab outrage is going to make Israel give up their land and disappear. So you can be as outraged as you like about Israelis living on stolen land... it's not going to change anything.

    And I can't help but notice that none of the Arab states that border Israel are particularly eager to help the Palestinians, when they could do so easily. Apparently they value Jewish lives over Arab ones too...?

  9. #249
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I've said this before and it's still true: Israel isn't going to go away. No amount of Arab outrage is going to make Israel give up their land and disappear. So you can be as outraged as you like about Israelis living on stolen land... it's not going to change anything.

    And I can't help but notice that none of the Arab states that border Israel are particularly eager to help the Palestinians, when they could do so easily. Apparently they value Jewish lives over Arab ones too...?
    We weren't discussig whether Israel is going to go away or not. I believe that, like everything, it will one day perish, and the question is what it will be replaced with. But never mind.

    The point is you keep oscillating froma rguing that the seige of Gaza of justified, to simply appealing to its existence to justify it. But which is it?

    Likewise, Arab rulers aside, this is like me saying that I have a right to kick you off your land and then demand that Canada gives you some land. Never mind where or how or who they would have to take it from.

    The Palestinians historical lands are in Palestine, and that is where they have the right to return to. Most people outside the USA recognize this, and this problem won't go away for the Zionists.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #250
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    The point is you keep oscillating froma rguing that the seige of Gaza of justified, to simply appealing to its existence to justify it. But which is it?
    Is that the point?

    I don't know that the siege of Gaza is justified ethically or morally, though a case could probably be made. My point is that we need to think about the situation in terms of real truths, not poses of outrage.

    Real Truth number 1: The Israeli state is not going to allow millions of Palestinian refugess (which include large numbers of Hamas and al-Fatah militants) into their country. They're just not... it would mean the end of Israel.

    Real Truth number 2: The Israeli state is not going to allow shipments of large quantities of uninspected goods into Gaza. They know that the Palestinians and their advocates have no qualms about shipping arms under the guise of humanitarian aid, and to allow such shipments is to facilitate more rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. It's not going to happen.

    Real Truth number 3: Arab leadership could solve the practical problems of the Palestinian refugees. The Palestinian population living in Gaza and the West Bank is perhaps five million; there are 18 million people living in the Cairo metropolitan area alone. Over the course of several years the refugees could be resettled in other countries, other cities, as many as a half-million per year, and they could have real futures and real opportunities... but the Arab world cares more about its grievance against Israel than it does the plight of these people.

    And if you think that Israel should be made to give up its land, or forced to accept the Palestinian refugees back into its territory, then I encourage you to take up a Kalashnikov and join the military of some state bordering Israel... Syria, perhaps... and make them do as you wish.

    Because if you have a problem with Real Truth number 3, then you need to reconsider Real Truths 1 and 2. The Israelis will not bend to your will voluntarily. Therefore, if they are to be made to bend, it will have to be accomplished by force. Therefore, either take up a rifle or please stop airing your endless grievances... your complaints accomplish nothing.

    QED.

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