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  1. #191
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    In normal circumstances, being American should have nothing to do with it. Dead is dead.
    But this is different. There is no country in the world that gets more military aid from the United States than Israel. This amounts to billions of dollars worth of military aid every year. In the United States, we do without quite a bit because our resources are being wasted on pointless wars and on military aid to countries with dubious human rights records (Israel and Colombia are two examples of that).
    If North Korea were to pull the same stunt and kill a few Americans, the United States government would be outraged and would be busy calling for sanctions from the United Nations.
    But it's Israel that killed and injured Americans, Turks, and others. And the president only says that he "regrets" the loss of life???
    Isn't it time to cut out the military aid to Israel... and use the resources to do something productive... a jobs program, better mass transit, health care...
    As for the Americans killing a Canadian terrorist... well... I don't know about that... I don't have enough information... but the incident with a Canadian citizen who was detained by the United States and shipped to somewhere in the middle east (I think that it was Syria), where he was tortured... this was a terrible example of extraordinary rendition... a horrifying human rights violation... the Canadian government should have recalled its ambassador over that flagrant abuse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What does being American have anything to do with it? What they do matters more than who they are.

    The Americans killed Canadian terrorist Ahmad Khadr in the assault on Afghanistan. Should the Canadians be outraged?
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    A) Correct, Israel have precautions against attacks. Unlike the Palestinians, the Israelis are capable of protecting themselves and are quite comfortable. They are only disrupted, the Palestinians are slaughtered, a testament to Israel's power and capabilities and lack of discretion.

    B) There are better ways for Israel to handle their neighbors. In Sun Tzu's Art of War it is explicitly advised against to attack the enemy's civilian population, to do so is to incur their wrath and future violence. Israel's been doing this for decades. "They started it" is not proper justification for assaulting civilians, and its incredibly immature.

    C) Do not bring Imperial Japan into this debate, it seriously undermines your own argument. Japan and the Arab states have nothing in common. Japan's "lands" were violently seized by military forces, much like what Israel did. Japan then brutally subjugated these people, exploited their resources, and committed all kinds of war crimes while agitating the international community. The international community then retook the lands that were mismanaged and not rightfully theirs to begin with and neutered Japan of their military, which has yet to happen with Israel.

    The foundation and justification for your logic is racism. The Palestinians and Arabs are not simpleton beasts, as you've labeled them, they're human beings. And in the case of the Palestinians, they are human beings pushed to the edge off desperation, and desperate humans do desperate things...
    A) ROFL..."only disrupted"...only disrupted...hey bub, go live in a place that gets a thousand rockets shota t it.

    B) Because we all know that Israel deliberately targets civilians. Hey bub, get a clue. If Israel wanted to commit wholesale slaughter, there'd be no more Palestinians to talk about. Heck, Genghis Khan made entire civilizations disappear because they fucked with him, so by historical standards, Israel's pretty tame.

    C) Actually, Israel was the land of the Jews long before the Palestinians got there. You know, displaced by the Romans and all? So it's more a case of the Jews are coming back to their land and kicking the squatters off. If you're saying "well 2000 years is too long a time", then at some point, it'll be too long a time for the Palestinians to have any legitimate claim at any part of Israel (not that they have any to begin with but...)

    As for the Palestinians pushed to the brink of desperation...sure, go nuts, attack civilians, do what you like...

    Just don't whine when you get the shit beat out of you for doing just that.

    The world needs to approach both factions here on the same level. If Hamas and the Palestinians break international laws, then they shouldn't be protected by them, either. If the only way that the Palestinians know how to fight is to collectively punish Israeli citizens, then they deserve to be collectively punished in the same way.

    Get a clue, bub...the reason weapons and military exists is that when all else fails, if the other guy wants to hurt you, your superior weapons beat the crap out of him until he cries uncle.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    In normal circumstances, being American should have nothing to do with it. Dead is dead.
    But this is different. There is no country in the world that gets more military aid from the United States than Israel. This amounts to billions of dollars worth of military aid every year. In the United States, we do without quite a bit because our resources are being wasted on pointless wars and on military aid to countries with dubious human rights records (Israel and Colombia are two examples of that).
    If North Korea were to pull the same stunt and kill a few Americans, the United States government would be outraged and would be busy calling for sanctions from the United Nations.
    But it's Israel that killed and injured Americans, Turks, and others. And the president only says that he "regrets" the loss of life???
    Isn't it time to cut out the military aid to Israel... and use the resources to do something productive... a jobs program, better mass transit, health care...
    As for the Americans killing a Canadian terrorist... well... I don't know about that... I don't have enough information... but the incident with a Canadian citizen who was detained by the United States and shipped to somewhere in the middle east (I think that it was Syria), where he was tortured... this was a terrible example of extraordinary rendition... a horrifying human rights violation... the Canadian government should have recalled its ambassador over that flagrant abuse.
    Well you're right that there's a lot more productive things we can do with all foreign subsidies.

    I say for starters, we stop providing money to Palestinian and other third world peoples. Neither America nor Rome was built in a day, and anyone who's third world now is that way for a pretty good reason.

    As for military aid to Israel, I don't think it needs it either, but then again, they're our only real ally in the region. As for "those poor, innocent Palestinians", those same people would have you killed in an instant simply because you don't pray to their invisible man. So honestly, while it might look like a tear-jerker from afar, they deserve everything they're getting.

    If they'd recognize Israel's right to exist, lay down their arms, relinquish their right of return, and get rid of their extremist indoctrinations, the blockade would probably go away nearly overnight.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  4. #194
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    What concessions will Israel make?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    If they'd recognize Israel's right to exist, lay down their arms, relinquish their right of return, and get rid of their extremist indoctrinations, the blockade would probably go away nearly overnight.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  5. #195
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    President Thomas Jefferson warned about the dangers of alliances in 1801. He said, "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." It looks as if the U.S. government has failed to heed his advice.
    Israel as (entangling) ally is a good example of how accurate President Jefferson's words were more than 200 years ago and how they still apply today.


    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    As for military aid to Israel, I don't think it needs it either, but then again, they're our only real ally in the region.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    What concessions will Israel make?
    As I said. They'd lift the blockade.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    President Thomas Jefferson warned about the dangers of alliances in 1801. He said, "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." It looks as if the U.S. government has failed to heed his advice.
    Israel as (entangling) ally is a good example of how accurate President Jefferson's words were more than 200 years ago and how they still apply today.
    No, Thomas Jefferson's advice got sorely upstaged when we followed it while Hitler took over almost all of Europe and sent countless people to concentration camps already.

    No, if something is happening across the world that's going to come to our shores if we don't take action there, we better take action.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  8. #198
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    What else?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    As I said. They'd lift the blockade.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  9. #199
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    What else? Try the fact that Netanyahu can seal the entire blockade and demand an unconditional surrender from Hamas or everyone in Gaza is a walking corpse.

    And honestly, all of these hippy peaceniks need to grow a pair and realize that when you're up against an enemy that wants to kill you, you break its will to fight, not negotiate with it. These hippy peaceniks are the reason we lost Vietnam, and imagine if the stupid mainstream media had been covering WW2

    "Oh those poor, innocent collectively punished Germans and Japanese! Not every German is a Jew-hating Nazi, and not every Japanese person is an imperialistic rat bastard! There are wide-eyed children living there!"

    Oh well.

    That didn't stop us from firebombing the crap out of everything Axis and topping it off with a pair of mushrooms to beat out an unconditional surrender from Japan.

    And now you people are whining over those poor, oppressed Palestinians.

    Go cry me a river. If it was for people like you 65 years ago, we'd all be speaking German by now and saying Heil Hitler.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  10. #200
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    You are all over the place, just dripping with sarcasm and not debating well. You've given me too many value judgments and not enough facts.
    You've given "hippie peaceniks" a lot of power that they really don't have. According to you, the "hippie peaceniks" caused the United States to lose its will to fight in Vietnam.
    I would suggest that you read The History Place - Vietnam War
    What was the point of the Vietnam War?
    What did we hope to accomplish should we have won the Vietnam War?
    Did you know that Ho Chi Minh and his troops helped the allies during World War II fight the Japanese?
    Ho Chi Minh asked for recognition of an independent Vietnam after World War II, and the United States decided to support France's plan to regain Indochina as a colony. In 1954, France was decisively defeated at Dien Bien Phu.
    At that point, why did the United States continue its involvement with Vietnam?
    Why not just let them alone?
    OK, next topic: Netanyahu sealing the entire blockade, demanding an unconditional surrender from Hamas... "or everyone in Gaza is walking corpse." Sure, Netanyahu can do whatever he likes. It doesn't have to be legal. You're absolutely right. But the entire world will have to respond with condemnation to that sort of action. The World Court and the International Criminal Court will have to get involved. Israel will have to be sanctioned by the United Nations. It is a serious violation of the the Geneva Conventions of 1949. Read this: International Humanitarian Law - Fourth 1949 Geneva Convention
    All right: topic the last:
    nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    Completely unacceptable. Japan was ready to surrender. What was the point, except to test new weapons?
    Well. We did that, and we are still suffering the consequences of developing and testing those weapons.
    In Western New York and in other areas of the United States, where the Manhattan Project was done, the nuclear waste that resulted was buried in improperly stored containers. They are leaching into the soil. There is radioactive material in the Niagara River. The result is cases of atypical cancers.
    Was it really our goal to kill our own citizens for years to come?
    Read this: Introduction: The Manhattan Project: A New and Secret World of Human Experimentation


    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    What else? Try the fact that Netanyahu can seal the entire blockade and demand an unconditional surrender from Hamas or everyone in Gaza is a walking corpse.

    And honestly, all of these hippy peaceniks need to grow a pair and realize that when you're up against an enemy that wants to kill you, you break its will to fight, not negotiate with it. These hippy peaceniks are the reason we lost Vietnam, and imagine if the stupid mainstream media had been covering WW2

    "Oh those poor, innocent collectively punished Germans and Japanese! Not every German is a Jew-hating Nazi, and not every Japanese person is an imperialistic rat bastard! There are wide-eyed children living there!"

    Oh well.

    That didn't stop us from firebombing the crap out of everything Axis and topping it off with a pair of mushrooms to beat out an unconditional surrender from Japan.

    And now you people are whining over those poor, oppressed Palestinians.

    Go cry me a river. If it was for people like you 65 years ago, we'd all be speaking German by now and saying Heil Hitler.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

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