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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Homemade and hand launched rockets are paltry compared to the air to surface and ground based tactical missiles of the IDF.

    There are better ways to handle minor violence than with vulgar displays of power.
    The violence only seems minor because Israel took a heck of a ton of precautions to keep it that way. It made a ton of bomb shelters in Sderot and when there's an incoming missile, everyone stops what they're doing and heads to a shelter. Result? No casualties, but major disruptions in ways of life.

    As for "there are better ways", no there really aren't, when the people causing you to do so only understand that might makes right. Heck, if it were Israel, and say, Japan, that were neighbors, I'm sure there'd be none of this nonsense.

    (And as for having your "lands" taken from you, what about the Japanese empire losing all of its territories?)

    They seem to have taken it in stride quite nicely, and have become a wonderful nation for it.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  2. #182
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    The United States doesn't criticize Israel, not even when the Israelis kill Americans. Where was the official outrage when Rachel Corrie (a U.S. citizen) was killed? One American was killed and several were wounded on that Turkish ship, and President Obama has not offered substantial criticism to Israel. The New York Times described the Obama administration's response to this current situation as "tepid."
    If you were to substitute the names "North Korea" or "Cuba" for "Israel," I bet you would get a different response to an incident such as this.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  3. #183
    Senior Member Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    The violence only seems minor because Israel took a heck of a ton of precautions to keep it that way. It made a ton of bomb shelters in Sderot and when there's an incoming missile, everyone stops what they're doing and heads to a shelter. Result? No casualties, but major disruptions in ways of life.

    As for "there are better ways", no there really aren't, when the people causing you to do so only understand that might makes right. Heck, if it were Israel, and say, Japan, that were neighbors, I'm sure there'd be none of this nonsense.

    (And as for having your "lands" taken from you, what about the Japanese empire losing all of its territories?)

    They seem to have taken it in stride quite nicely, and have become a wonderful nation for it.
    A) Correct, Israel have precautions against attacks. Unlike the Palestinians, the Israelis are capable of protecting themselves and are quite comfortable. They are only disrupted, the Palestinians are slaughtered, a testament to Israel's power and capabilities and lack of discretion.

    B) There are better ways for Israel to handle their neighbors. In Sun Tzu's Art of War it is explicitly advised against to attack the enemy's civilian population, to do so is to incur their wrath and future violence. Israel's been doing this for decades. "They started it" is not proper justification for assaulting civilians, and its incredibly immature.

    C) Do not bring Imperial Japan into this debate, it seriously undermines your own argument. Japan and the Arab states have nothing in common. Japan's "lands" were violently seized by military forces, much like what Israel did. Japan then brutally subjugated these people, exploited their resources, and committed all kinds of war crimes while agitating the international community. The international community then retook the lands that were mismanaged and not rightfully theirs to begin with and neutered Japan of their military, which has yet to happen with Israel.

    The foundation and justification for your logic is racism. The Palestinians and Arabs are not simpleton beasts, as you've labeled them, they're human beings. And in the case of the Palestinians, they are human beings pushed to the edge off desperation, and desperate humans do desperate things...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    So nowhere are there actually "convenient omissions" nor does he contradict himself.
    Where do I start?

    1. The "witness" was allowed to present very contentious accusations without journalistic critique. The purpose of is to en-flame public opinion against the Israelis. Al Jaz gets to do this without liability. If it turns out to be a lie, the witness takes the fall.

    Publishing outrageous reports supported only by witness testimonies is a favorite tactics of sensationalist papers such as the National Enquirer.

    2. The same tactic was used when the witness said he did not see any wounds on the subdued commandos. For all I know, there could have been 10 others who said they saw the injury, but the reporter only aired the one who was conveniently blind at the time.

    3. They mention that witnesses saw the commandos kill several people. They did not bother to mention what lead to the killing. If the guy was trying to stab the soldiers, then his killing was completely justified.

    4. The "witnesses" reported hearing gunfire from the commandos still in the air. How do we know it wasn't just paintball guns? That would be the most probable scenario, since crowd control was their goal after seeing several colleagues lynched.

  5. #185
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    This report was more balanced than the one from Al Jaz. At least both sides were presented.

    I still see nothing to support the claims that the commandos were not simply attempting to act in self defense against a wild mob. If they were out for blood, they would have used more powerful weapons. A helicopter gunship could have cleared the deck in 30 seconds.

  6. #186
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The question of which side is right, or which side has the moral high ground, is pretty much moot at this point. What matters are realities...
    You are a clever mouse. The two parties disagree so profoundly that reaching any agreement on the conflict is impossible. I like Dan Ariely's view that 3rd party arbitration is critical, if an accomodation is to be found:

    If people are irrational, how can we agree on anything? | Dan Ariely | Big Think

    But which 3rd party - the US?

    Roi Ben-Yehuda's has an interesting take on potential US negotiating strategy, which possibly explains Netanyahu's seeming intransigence.

    Other than that, there is no point in entering the fray on this subject.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    At the end of that 44 Israeli civilians were dead (over half of whom were Arab-Israelis), while over a 1,200 Lebanese civilians were killed.
    How does that prove the Israelis are in the wrong? Defense is not tits for tats. If a single Israeli citizen got killed in a rocket attack, do you expect the IDF to just march in and kill a citizen from the offending nation? That would be silly. Their responsibility is to end the attacks once an for all.

    There are better ways to handle minor violence than with vulgar displays of power.
    Call it minor violence if you like. But if rockets were landing in your city every day, the fear of death would ruin your quality of life and you would demand the government to take action to restore your sense of security.

    Retaliation is not a demonstration of might. It's an attempt to dissuade future aggression.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range | World news | The Guardian[/url]
    This supports the Israeli claim that the commandos were acting in self defense. It shows that the soldiers did not fire on the crowd unless they moved within range to attack with knives and clubs.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    The UN General Secretary condemned Israel attacks on schools I dunno, 1 or 2 years ago and said the UN would investigate, but you saw not even a *mention* of that on US tv or even the internet.
    There were lots of mention. The Israeli contends that they had no choice because the militants were shooting rockets from schools and hospitals. Human shields.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    The United States doesn't criticize Israel, not even when the Israelis kill Americans. Where was the official outrage when Rachel Corrie (a U.S. citizen) was killed? One American was killed and several were wounded on that Turkish ship, and President Obama has not offered substantial criticism to Israel.
    What does being American have anything to do with it? What they do matters more than who they are.

    The Americans killed Canadian terrorist Ahmad Khadr in the assault on Afghanistan. Should the Canadians be outraged?

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