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  1. #161
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    No, said group attacked them from day one. 1948 says hello. And again in 1967. And again and again with the Intifadas. The Palestinians are absolutely the antithesis of innocent. In fact, it is they who have made their own bed.

    As for collective punishment, when was the last conventional war? Oh, right, WW2.

    As for your "let's say", how about we don't say. There's a reason the US has a top-notch military, and that's so that anyone challenging in a straight up fight gets the crap knocked out of them. Same goes for Israel. When they invaded Lebanon, Beirut fell in a few days. As for your dumb analogy, just to entertain it, guess what?

    Let's just go back to the Israeli army: if I'm an Israeli commander and my soldiers are conscripted children no older than I currently am (not even 24 yet) because my country is smaller than New Jersey surrounded by a bunch of misbegotten theocracies run by extremist dumbfucks (whether officially or not), guess what?

    I have option A) put those kids in harm's way and have to explain why they died or got grievously injured to their parents.

    or option B) blast the damn motherfuckers and get the usual international outcry from a bunch of pansy-ass politicians living in their mansions who have never had a rocket fired at their towns, or have never seen combat. (And probably have some deep-seeded anti-semitism going as well...after all, the Jews do achieve a lot for others to be jealous of--and especially at such a tiny proportion of the world's population)

    Sorry, but I'll take option B all the time. Want to fight in the open? Be my guest. Come out and fight. But when I'm outnumbered and commanding a bunch of children, I don't care if they're signed up as soldiers, I'm doing whatever it takes to bring them home safely, because today's soldier is tomorrow's business leader or startup founder after he completes his mandatory army service.

    So in truth, I really don't care whose responsibility it is. As an Israeli commander, my biggest responsibility is to my subordinates (at least if I'm a good commander), and frankly, I think that philosophy goes up and down the whole structure of command, all the way up to Bibi "Badass" Netanyahu himself.

    As for "certain Israeli political leaders are especially nasty people"...all I have to say is that Bibi Netanyahu is by far my most favorite world leader right now--simply because the man has balls to do what he deems necessary and not pussy-foot around with talking talking talking when talking has shown time and again to do nothing when you're dealing with extremism.

    Bibi knows firsthand as a veteran Israeli commando (Israel's equivalent to Navy SEALs mind you) what's up. And he being the badass he is, isn't afraid to take action. But to all the other world leaders these days, what the heck, someone actually having the brass ones to say "screw you" to international opinion and does what's actually best for his people, not what's best for publicity?

    This is an outrage!
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  2. #162
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    Okay, so you're a hard right-winger who places all of the blame on the Palestinians, and reflexively and unconditionally supports any of Israel's actions against them.

    Gotcha. Further discussion with you is pointless. You are dismissed.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Okay, so you're a hard right-winger who places all of the blame on the Palestinians, and reflexively and unconditionally supports any of Israel's actions against them.

    Gotcha. Further discussion with you is pointless. You are dismissed.
    Actually I vote straight-ticket democrat here in the states, thanks for asking.

    But in this case, on the one side, you have a country less than the size of New Jersey that's like silicon valley crammed together into one small country, and then, they're surrounded by theological dumbfucks, and one particularly annoying theological dumbfuck is trying particularly hard to wipe this amazing country off the Earth because waah they got their land stolen 60 years ago.

    And we're supposed to feel sympathy for them after they attacked (and lost) again and again and again.

    Give me a break.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Actually I vote straight-ticket democrat here in the states, thanks for asking.

    But in this case, on the one side, you have a country less than the size of New Jersey that's like silicon valley crammed together into one small country, and then, they're surrounded by theological dumbfucks, and one particularly annoying theological dumbfuck is trying particularly hard to wipe this amazing country off the Earth because waah they got their land stolen 60 years ago.

    And we're supposed to feel sympathy for them after they attacked (and lost) again and again and again.

    Give me a break.
    When you put it that way...


  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Actually I vote straight-ticket democrat here in the states, thanks for asking.
    I meant hard-right in terms of your stance on Israel. There are plenty of Dems like that.

    and one particularly annoying theological dumbfuck is trying particularly hard to wipe this amazing country off the Earth
    Yeah, except that doesn't exactly correspond with the reality of the last 60 years, when most of the Palestinian liberation movement was secular up until the 90s.

    because waah they got their land stolen 60 years ago.
    Yeah what a bunch of whiners. They should just accept being placed under foreign military occupation and having their land stolen from them. Gee, why on earth would they want to wipe out the country that keeps stealing their land, has their country under military occupation, fucks up their farms, bulldozes their homes, colonizes their land to make them a minority in their own country and communities, routinely kills civilians, and treats them like dogs? It truly boggles the mind.

    I know if something like that happened in the US, we'd just take it in stride and none of us would resort to violence against the foreign occupier.

    And we're supposed to feel sympathy for them after they attacked (and lost) again and again and again.

    Give me a break.
    I don't expect you to feel anything for them. You've already made it clear you stand on the side of the oppressor and will defend Israel's actions towards the Palestinians no matter what they do. To you they are faultless, and the Palestinians just some "dumbfucks" who are in their way.

  6. #166
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    The question of which side is right, or which side has the moral high ground, is pretty much moot at this point. What matters are realities... and one reality is that Israel isn't going to stop existing just because a million Arabs want it to, or even because all the rest of the world wants it to. It's there, and no number of piddly rocket attacks are going to make it go away.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Simple example:

    "Witnesses say a second wave of commandos followed with a more deadly intent"


    "This second group open fire on the group as they were in the air"


    "I saw people die before my eyes"


    The sequence creates the impression that the commandos killed people from the air. Yet, nowhere did they explicitly say that, so they can't be accused of lying if contradicting evidence shows up on video.

    It's clever propaganda.
    So nowhere are there actually "convenient omissions" nor does he contradict himself. While running of his life he wouldn't necessarilly know if the firing from the air killed people, would he?

    Ilayk:

    hey buddy, mind taking that personality test again?
    Please don't call me your "buddy", you racist nutcase.

    I don't remember the criteria for ENTJ being "complete intellectual dishonesty, historical ignorance, sociopathic tendencies; prone to long incoherent rants", but there you go; all types have their good and bad representatives.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    I Yeah what a bunch of whiners. They should just accept being placed under foreign military occupation and having their land stolen from them. Gee, why on earth would they want to wipe out the country that keeps stealing their land, has their country under military occupation, fucks up their farms, bulldozes their homes, colonizes their land to make them a minority in their own country and communities, routinely kills civilians, and treats them like dogs? It truly boggles the mind.
    LOL. I love how right wingers think privawte property is sacred unless it's someone else's.

    Reminds of this by Marx, regarding the British in India:

    The profound hypocrisy and inherent barbarism of bourgeois civilization lies unveiled before our eyes, turning from its home, where it assumes respectable forms, to the colonies, where it goes naked. They are the defenders of property, but did any revolutionary party ever originate agrarian revolutions like those in Bengal, in Madras, and in Bombay? Did they not, in India, to borrow an expression of. that great robber, Lord Clive himself, resort to atrocious extortion, when simple corruption could not keep pace with their rapacity? While they prated in Europe about the inviolable sanctity of the national debt, did they not confiscate in India the dividends of the rajahs, 171 who had invested their private savings in the Company’s own funds? While they combatted the French revolution under the pretext of defending “our holy religion,” did they not forbid, at the same time, Christianity to be propagated in India, and did they not, in order to make money out of the pilgrims streaming to the temples of Orissa and Bengal, take up the trade in the murder and prostitution perpetrated in the temple of juggernaut? These are the men of “Property, Order, Family, and Religion.”

    The Future Results of British Rule in India by Karl Marx
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The question of which side is right, or which side has the moral high ground, is pretty much moot at this point.
    How you figure? When do moral considerations become "moot"?

    What matters are realities... and one reality is that Israel isn't going to stop existing just because a million Arabs want it to, or even because all the rest of the world wants it to. It's there, and no number of piddly rocket attacks are going to make it go away.
    Okay, and...

  10. #170
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    Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range | World news | The Guardian

    Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range

    Exclusive


    Nine Turkish men on board Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times, autopsy results reveal

    Crowds at the funeral of one of the Turkish victims of the Gaza flotilla raid, at the Beyazit mosque in Istanbul. Photograph: Vadim Ghirda/AP

    Israel was tonight under pressure to allow an independent inquiry into its assault on the Gaza aid flotilla after autopsy results on the bodies of those killed, obtained by the Guardian, revealed they were peppered with 9mm bullets, many fired at close range.

    Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

    The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

    The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill policy".

    He calculated that during the bloodiest part of the assault, Israeli commandos shot one person every minute. One man was fatally shot in the back of the head just two feet in front him and another was shot once between the eyes. He added that as well as the fatally wounded, 48 others were suffering from gunshot wounds and six activists remained missing, suggesting the death toll may increase.

    The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.

    "Given the very disturbing evidence which contradicts the line from the Israeli media and suggests that Israelis have been very selective in the way they have addressed this, there is now an overwhelming need for an international inquiry," said Andrew Slaughter MP, a member of the all party group on Britain and Palestine.

    Israel said tonight the number of bullets found in the bodies did not alter the fact that the soldiers were acting in self defence. "The only situation when a soldier shot was when it was a clearly a life-threatening situation," said a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in London. "Pulling the trigger quickly can result in a few bullets being in the same body, but does not change the fact they were in a life-threatening situation."

    Protesters from across the country will tomorrow march from Downing Street to the Israeli embassy to call for Israel to be held to account for its actions.

    Earlier this week, William Hague, the foreign secretary, said the government would call for an inquiry under international auspices if Israel refuses to establish an independent inquiry, including an international presence.

    The autopsy results were released as the last of the Turkish victims was buried.

    Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds. "All [the bullets] were intact. This is important in a forensic context. When a bullet strikes another place it comes into the body deformed. If it directly comes into the body, the bullet is all intact."

    He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds. Of the other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

    An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below …

    "We knew they were peace activists. Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance – we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury."

    Tonight the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel crewed by supporters of the Free Gaza movement, remained on course for Gaza. Yossi Gal, director general at the Israeli foreign ministry, said Israel had "no desire for a confrontation" but asked for the ship to dock at Ashdod, not Gaza.

    "If the ship decides to sail the port of Ashdod, then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it," he said.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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