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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    How do you expect to rebuild a broken nation?

    1) Cast off your radical leaders who are constantly picking a fight with the neighbor that can wipe you off the face of the planet in a day and refrains from doing so only through the goodness of their hearts. Instead, elect leaders that would attempt to patch relations through talks and concessions and compromise.
    Um, no-- although there are plenty of peace activists and left-liberals in Israel that would protest such an action by the Israeli government because of "the goodness of their hearts", that is hardly the only reason, nor is it even the primary reason. The primary reason is that anyone sane in the Israeli political and social establishment knows that if Israel declared total war on the Palestinians and set about wiping them out, they risk having the US pull its support, which would put Israel in a very tenuous position.

    But of course, this isn't going to happen because of all of the presence of Ignorant Savages Lusting After Martyrdom in Gaza.
    No, it's not going to happen because Israel will never make the kind of concessions necessary for the Palestinians to build a viable state, even if the Palestinians all turned into a bunch of fuckin hippies and started singing Kum-By-Yah with flowers in their hair.

    Think about it--in no other place on Earth is there such a conflict as between Israel and the Palestinians
    Patently false.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    As I mentioned, there are plenty of Arab Israeli citizens. If this was about genocide, there would be none.
    Not necessarily. Today there are American Indians who are citizens of the US and many other countries of the America, but the Europeans and their American descendants did carry out a genocidal campaign against the American Indians.

    Genocide doesn't necessarily mean you have to wipe out every last member of a group, but you do need to decisively smash their power, take their land, and dilute or even obliterate their collective identity, culture, institutions and organizations and force some level of assimilation into the conquering culture. The presence of Arab-Israeli citizens doesn't mean Israel cannot still destroy the Palestinian people as a cohesive national group.

    The Holocaust is the exception, not the rule of genocide-- most nations committing genocide aren't interested in systematically killing every single member of the targeted group, just smashing them AS a group.

  2. #142
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    Well ya think that if the Brits kicked out your friends and the new guys in the block didn't like you too much that you wouldn't want to stick around...sounds reasonable to me.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Well ya think that if the Brits kicked out your friends and the new guys in the block didn't like you too much that you wouldn't want to stick around...sounds reasonable to me.
    No, I think that if another nation was occupying my country and making land grabs at my national group's expense, I'd be standing my ground and shooting the rat bastards, as would be my right.

    If you'd like to test this theory break down the door to my rowhouse, tell me you've claimed all the good spots and I have to sleep in the basement, and see what happens. Hint: I'm not going to find a new place to live.

  4. #144
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Europeans and their American descendants did carry out a genocidal campaign against the American Indians.
    Genocide is too often conflated with the destruction of a culture or society that is a result of conquest. America, with nearly half of its states and hundreds of cities, counties, and natural landmarks named after Indian people or words in native tongues — not to mention the conferment of dozens of semi-autonomous entities, some as large as states — doesn't apply. Such preservation is pretty rare in history.

    The "genocide" canard is so easily refuted, I'm surprised people actually try to use it in argument.

    Then again, this is an Israel-bashing thread, where fact does not tread.

  5. #145
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Thursday, June 03, 2010

    Interview with flotilla survivor

    Kevin Ovenden explains:



    "At 4.25am the attack began. The warship had neared and commandoes were lowering themselves onto the deck from helicopters. There were two motorised dinghies, carrying 14-20 commandoes, on either side of the boat.

    "It was clear they were armed – it was the equivalent to an SAS raid. They were all wearing paramilitary style balaclavas.

    "The first soldiers landed on the roof of the ship, people responded instinctively with their bare hands and things you would find on a ship – pieces of wood and piping and so on. No sharp objects were used.

    Two soldiers were overpowered and pushed below deck. They were disarmed to prevent further injury or death.

    "The attack opened with percussion grenades.

    "These don’t just make a noise but send shockwaves of heavy vibration. They were trying to create terror and panic.

    "They also used rubber coated bullets in the earlier stage. But very quickly they turned to live rounds and we were taking heavy casualties.

    "Niki Enchmarch was on the top deck standing next to a Turkish man who was holding a camera. An Israeli soldier shot him in the middle of the forehead. It blew off the back of his skull and he died.

    "I was on the second deck. A man standing a metre in front of me was shot in the leg, the man to the right of me in the abdomen. There was pandemonium and terror.

    "The youngest person on the ship was not yet a year old, the eldest 88. The crew included German and Egyptian parliamentarians, NGO workers and representatives from various charities. This is who Israel was targeting.

    "While they opened fire we struggled in our defence and to limit the massacre.

    "They attacked with lethal force to terrorise the movement for the end of the siege of Gaza and the wider movement of solidarity with Palestine. They used violence to instill terror for political ends. This is the definition of terrorism."
    LENIN'S TOMB
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    So far from being a disinterested and objective observer who thinks "we should wait for more information", you're actually a pro-zionist who believes whatever the IDF tells you. Your idea of "more information" is "wait until the Israelis tell me the party line"
    Who said I will never formulate opinions when the facts are in? I see no evidence that the commandos went in with guns blazing. It's unreasonable that many talking heads are condemning Israel for another "massacre".

  7. #147
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Who said I will never formulate opinions when the facts are in?
    Just a hunch. You so far have defended the illegal seige of Gaza; defended the illegal act of piracy bythe IDF in attempting to take over a ship registered in Mauritius in international waters; and then defended their right to shoot dead anyone who tries to resist these measures with force, even when those people don't have guns. I'm guessing you also support Israel's illegal denial of 5 million Palestinian refugees' right to return to their homeland?

    It still amazes me then why you still try to present yourself as a disinterested observer when you have a clear pro-Israel stance on all those issues.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Lenin returns from the grave to write comedy?

  9. #149
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Lenin returns from the grave to write comedy?
    Your psychic powers/The IDF told you it was untrue?

    What happened to "wait for more evidence"?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    You so far have defended the illegal seige of Gaza;
    Cuz they're shoot'n missiles from there.

    defended their right to shoot dead anyone who tries to resist these measures with force, even when those people don't have guns.
    If a mob was trying to kill you with primitive weapons, shooting them dead would be wise.

    I'm guessing you also support Israel's illegal denial of 5 million Palestinian refugees' right to return to their homeland?
    Enough of those 5 million don't want to share the land with infidels. It's impractical at this point.

    It still amazes me then why you still try to present yourself as a disinterested observer when you have a clear pro-Israel stance on all those issues.
    I never said I wasn't sympathetic to Israel's predicament. But I don't believe they can do no wrong neither. I look at incidences on a case by case basis.

    At the same time, I don't believe that the Palestinians can do no right neither.

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