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  1. #131
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Exactly. A state based on racial exclusion by definition is illegitimate.

    Your idea that the Arabs and Jews could never live together in a common state is just your own proclamation. They do so in other countries, there is no reason they can't in Palestine. Unless you believe that Arabs are inherently anti-semitic and irrational.
    Oh, I don't think that at all... in fact, there are plenty of Arab Israeli citizens. Arabs and Jews live together just fine. It's Hamas and Israel that can't get along... and how long do you suppose Israel would last as a nation if it were to give the residents of the occupied territories the run of their country?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    If the Israelis have a right to be armed then so do the Palestinians, but quite apart from that, the ship was not shipping ammunition or guns.
    If you think for a minute that there was no military material destined to make it into the occupied territories with those shipments of concrete and relief supplies, then you and your family should be ashamed at your foolishness.

  2. #132
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    If you think for a minute that there was no military material destined to make it into the occupied territories with those shipments of concrete and relief supplies, then you and your family should be ashamed at your foolishness.
    You said the hsip was transporting "weapons and ammuniton".

    As for cement - hw the hell do you expect to rebuild a broken region after bombing (by Israel) without cement? Could Americans live without cement? Your country also uses many basic materials to make weapons, with which they kill many many more people than Hamas could ever dream of - but yet I don't think average working Americans should be forced to live in a society deprived of basic building materials.

    i.e. I don't believe in collective punishment against civilian populations, you evidently do.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #133
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    You said the hsip was transporting "weapons and ammuniton".
    And I believe it was, among other things. I certainly believe that if I were Israel I sure wouldn't have let that ship through.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    As for cement - hw the hell do you expect to rebuild a broken region after bombing (by Israel) without cement? Could Americans live without cement? Your country also uses many basic materials to make weapons, with which they kill many many more people than Hamas could ever dream of - but yet I don't think average working Americans should be forced to live in a society deprived of basic building materials.
    Of course there was cement. I just don't for a minute believe the cargo was only cement, and neither do you in your heart of hearts.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    i.e. I don't believe in collective punishment against civilian populations, you evidently do.
    Not at all... but when the Palestinian "warriors" hide behind innocent civilian women and children like the little boys that they are, blending in with the innocent to use them as human shields, they don't leave the enemy any options.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post

    As for cement - hw the hell do you expect to rebuild a broken region after bombing (by Israel) without cement?
    i.e. I don't believe in collective punishment against civilian populations, you evidently do.
    How do you expect to rebuild a broken nation?

    1) Cast off your radical leaders who are constantly picking a fight with the neighbor that can wipe you off the face of the planet in a day and refrains from doing so only through the goodness of their hearts. Instead, elect leaders that would attempt to patch relations through talks and concessions and compromise.

    2) Rebuild trust with said neighbor.

    3) Generally become a neighbor that is nice to live next door to.

    4) And therefore, once you pose no threat to said neighbor's civilians by your shooting of rockets and you are deemed as harmless as a kitten, you can have all of the building materials you want.

    But of course, this isn't going to happen because of all of the presence of Ignorant Savages Lusting After Martyrdom in Gaza.

    Think about it--in no other place on Earth is there such a conflict as between Israel and the Palestinians--and why?

    Because Mexicans don't shoot rockets into the southern US. However, as governor of Arizona, Jan Brewer has recently demonstrated, the southern states will act pretty quickly at clamping down on border security at far less than that. Suffice to say, if Mexico shot rockets into AZ, CA, or NM, there'd be no blockade--it'd be flattened in short order, no questions asked.

    And in Europe, they've stopped killing each other after the third Reich fell, because they know how that kind of conflict goes, and it's not pretty.

    But the Palestinians have yet to get the message, because the same thing happens every time:

    1) Palestinians attack Israel with crude rockets
    2) Israel lays down disproportionate smackdown
    3) Palestinians whine like the little bitches they are
    4) Everyone says "children, children, now stop fighting" and the missiles stop flying
    5) The whole conflict recedes into the past and the memories are forgotten, and we're back to more or less where we started, sans several thousand dead Palestinians, and perhaps ten Israelis.

    So, until they get a clue and stop trying to destroy Israel day in day out, nothing's going to get done. That said, if the Israeli leadership was as evil as Hamas in terms of A) breaking all of the international laws like they never existed and B) maximizing civilian body count...

    Well...what do you expect will be more effective...

    A) suicide bombers wearing bombs strapped to their chests and crude Qassam rockets

    B) White phosphorus, napalm, depleted uranium shells, and all other manner of death from above courtesy of F-15s and F-16s and Israeli tanks?

    So long as one side wishes for the death of another, we're not going to get anywhere, no blockade will be lifted, and the Palestinians will continue to cut off their proverbial nose to spite their face.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  5. #135
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Sad to see emerging evidence of the Turkish government contriving a situation resulting in the deaths of idiot fanatics. But as always, never understood by the region's dictatorships, Israel will stand and defend herself.


    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon
    Assemble twenty Arab Muslims from different places and they won't even agree on the price of felafel, but if you add an Israeli to the mix they will all agree that he is to blame for their troubles, and at least three of them will try to kill him on the spot.
    So true. The problem isn't religion or irredentism — it's the fruitless, repetitive, ignorant and destructive cultures of illiberal societies.

  6. #136
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=oberon;1189464]
    And I believe it was, among other things. I certainly believe that if I were Israel I sure wouldn't have let that ship through.

    On what basis do you believe this? Here is the Israeli report from immediately after the attack:

    LENIN'S TOMB: Saddam's WMD found aboard Gaza Freedom flotilla

    You think those would have been any use to Hamas against the IDF!?

    In any case, like I say, the Palestinians have a right to be armed if Israel does. But as Israel has not even a legal right to police international waters or the borders of Gaza, it's an irrelevant question anyway.

    In any case their measures have led to Egypt opening its border with Gaza, so not only were they murderous and barbaric, but also self-defeating. Now the Palestinians can get arms (and other basic survival products) easier than they could before the attack. And good.


    Of course there was cement. I just don't for a minute believe the cargo was only cement, and neither do you in your heart of hearts.
    I never said it was only cement. There were however no weapons designed for Gaza - although I think it would be compeltely justified to take weapons personally, I know for a fact many of those on the ship did not think that.

    Not at all... but when the Palestinian "warriors" hide behind innocent civilian women and children like the little boys that they are, blending in with the innocent to use them as human shields, they don't leave the enemy any options
    This is rubbish. If Israel offered the PAlestinians the right to return and just compensation for 6 decades of ethnic cleansing, Hamas would disappear very quickly. Israel is not trying to defeat Hamas, it is trying to crush the Palestinian people.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #137
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    This is rubbish. If Israel offered the PAlestinians the right to return and just compensation for 6 decades of ethnic cleansing, Hamas would disappear very quickly. Israel is not trying to defeat Hamas, it is trying to crush the Palestinian people.
    As I mentioned, there are plenty of Arab Israeli citizens. If this was about genocide, there would be none.

  8. #138
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    As I mentioned, there are plenty of Arab Israeli citizens. If this was about genocide, there would be none.
    I siad ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

    80% of the Arabs from modern day Israel were expelled from their lands directly or de facto, to make way for a majority Jewish state. If that is not ethnic cleansing, what is it?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I siad ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

    80% of the Arabs from modern day Israel were expelled from their lands directly or de facto, to make way for a majority Jewish state. If that is not ethnic cleansing, what is it?
    And this was done by the British Empire, which no longer exists. The British kicked out the Palestinians, and the Israelis then kicked out the British. Want to complain? Go complain to the nonexistent British Empire.

    And if not, then, oh well, too bad, sucks for them. But so long as they're arming themselves and otherwise trying to kill Israelis, they can eat lead for all I care.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  10. #140
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    And this was done by the British Empire, which no longer exists. The British kicked out the Palestinians, and the Israelis then kicked out the British.
    Cool story bro.

    But not even true on its own terms. 80% did not leave with the Nakba, but with the Nakba and the subsequent decades combined.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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