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  1. #121
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    They've already tried that and failed.

    1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Yes, Israel defeated the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinians in 1948-49. Given the growing technological gap, I doubt there is much the Muslim nations can do militarily.
    I'm aware of the history of relations between Israel and its neighbours.

    Maybe I wasn't clear enough that a prerequisite of genuine unity of the Arab people would be overthrowing their corrupt and collaborationist leaders, who as Edward Said stated "want nothing more than to be white".
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #122
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I'm aware of the history of relations between Israel and its neighbours.
    Then you're also aware that those nations will never take in the populations of the refugee camps (third-generation refugee populations, now). Though Egypt or Syria could absorb these people and once again give them a future, they would much rather have these burgeoning hell-holes as a stick to beat Israel with.

    Let's face it... if Israel didn't already exist, the Arab world would have to invent it. Assemble twenty Arab Muslims from different places and they won't even agree on the price of felafel, but if you add an Israeli to the mix they will all agree that he is to blame for their troubles, and at least three of them will try to kill him on the spot.

    Arab leadership uses the existence of Israel to distract their populations from the corruption at home. As I say, if Israel didn't exist, the Arabs would have to invent it.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    We are not talking about what was expected, we are talking about what is justified. Is this a hard distinction to understand for someone graduated in law!? I can condemn an action without claiming it was unexpected. I may say "well of course that dictatorial regime will shoot you if you protest against it" - but this neither makes said actions justified, nor is an argument against protesting.

    (FWIW though it is quite unprecedented what the Israelis did, and nowhere near as predictable as you claim, but that's another issue).

    Let's extend your logic: "I don't know about you but if I was black and wanted to marry a white woman in Alabama in the 1930's, I'd expect to be lynched. therefore, quit your whining the lot of you liberal do-gooders."

    Or: "I don't know about you but if I was going to protest against segregation in the US in the 1930's I'd expect to be assasinated. therefore no-one should complain when it happens".

    Etc., etc., etc.

    But wouldn't we all be better off if everyone thoguht like you eh MacGuffin?

    This point was already dealt with in the thread btw.
    You shouldn't conflate the two concepts then.

    Is it justified for civilians to be shot by soldiers? No.

    Is it justified for soldiers to shoot attacking civilians? Yes.

  4. #124
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Is it justified for soldiers to shoot attacking civilians? Yes.
    This is an unsupported generalization. We need to know the situation of the "attack". In this case it was not justified.

    If I break into your house, you attack me with your fists, and I shoot you and your family dead, and carry on shooting even after you have surrendered, I'm guessing I'd be sent down for murder (and also for breaking into the house in the first place). But I'm no lawyer, admittedly
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    This is an unsupported generalization. We need to know the situation of the "attack". In this case it was not justified.
    This entire thread from the title onward is an unsupported generalization.

  6. #126
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    This entire thread from the title onward is an unsupported generalization.
    Not really.

    The blockade of Gaza is immoral and ilelgal.

    The Israeli attempt to take over te flotilla was not only immoral, but also ilelgal, as the hsip was in international waters.

    The activists on board therefore not only had moral but legal right to resist.

    Therefore talking about the fact that the IDF soldiers were "under attack" when they shot dead 9 unarmed civilians, is just pathetic apologetics.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #127
    Oberon
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    Let's face one reality, okay?

    If Israel was to grant right of return to every Palestinian in the occupied territories and let them have the run of the nation, it would mean the end of Israel as a nation. The Israeli government knows this.

    For that reason, Israel will never grant right of return. It's suicide. For that same reason, the rest of the Arab world will never take in the residents of the occupied territories... they would much rather try to talk Israel into committing suicide.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Not really.

    The blockade of Gaza is immoral and ilelgal.

    The Israeli attempt to take over te flotilla was not only immoral, but also ilelgal, as the hsip was in international waters.

    The activists on board therefore not only had moral but legal right to resist.

    Therefore talking about the fact that the IDF soldiers were "under attack" when they shot dead 9 unarmed civilians, is just pathetic apologetics.
    I thought it was 30? Unarmed? Immoral?

    This thread stinks of something.

  9. #129
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Not really.

    The blockade of Gaza is immoral and ilelgal.
    So international law requires that you allow your enemies to ship weapons and ammunition to individuals who will use them to shoot at you?

  10. #130
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I thought it was 30? Unarmed? Immoral?
    At the time the deaths were reported as more than 9 by the Israeli media itself. I already acknowledged the mistake.

    Likewise, you think the blockade of Gaza is morally justified then? On what basis?

    And do you think the soldiers actions in illegaly invading the ship in international waters and then shooting civilians as they tried to defend it, were justified or not?

    Simple question, all it requires is that you look at the whole situation, and give a serious response which takes into account what really happened, instead of speaking the most depersonalized and general way possible (a sign of an unhealthy INTP btw). You can't explain away real events with sophistry and cheap shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Let's face one reality, okay?

    If Israel was to grant right of return to every Palestinian in the occupied territories and let them have the run of the nation, it would mean the end of Israel as a nation. The Israeli government knows this.
    Exactly. A state based on racial exclusion by definition is illegitimate.

    Your idea that the Arabs and Jews could never live together in a common state is just your own proclamation. They do so in other countries, there is no reason they can't in Palestine. Unless you believe that Arabs are inherently anti-semitic and irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    So international law requires that you allow your enemies to ship weapons and ammunition to individuals who will use them to shoot at you?
    If the Israelis have a right to be armed then so do the Palestinians, but quite apart from that, the ship was not shipping ammunition or guns.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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