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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Generally I wouldn't consider fighting against the invasion of your ship in itnernational waters, with fists, to be a crime, and certainly not to justify being shot with live ammunition for, would you!?
    I don't know about you, but to me, if I attack soldiers carrying guns, I might get shot.

    That's just me though.

  2. #102
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    How does it paint a different picture? That is the information the whole debate in most of the thread was based on, and it is by far the most reported information in the west, sio what "balance" are you talking about?

    Generally I wouldn't consider fighting against the invasion of your ship in itnernational waters, with fists, to be a crime, and certainly not to justify being shot with live ammunition for, would you!?
    Apologies, I only read part of the thread - there is a lot to keep up with.

    It does baffle me however that people that attack (and it was with bars/sticks of some kind, not merely fists) armed soldiers don't expect to be shot. No matter how righteous you cause is, that's just stupid. The other ships were boarded with no problems because the people on the ships didn't attack the soldiers - the loss of life was needless. And the Israelis were raiding the ships because the suspected that they were transporting weapons and the people aboard, possible terrrorists. If a suspected terrorist attacks you, it is likely that you will defend yourself with the means you have at hand. The soldiers overreacted but I can't see that Israel should be universally condemned for the loss of life for what was a clear case of both parties being to blame.
    Last edited by Southern Kross; 06-03-2010 at 12:02 AM.

  3. #103
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I don't know about you, but to me, if I attack soldiers carrying guns, I might get shot.

    That's just me though.
    We are not talking about what was expected, we are talking about what is justified. Is this a hard distinction to understand for someone graduated in law!? I can condemn an action without claiming it was unexpected. I may say "well of course that dictatorial regime will shoot you if you protest against it" - but this neither makes said actions justified, nor is an argument against protesting.

    (FWIW though it is quite unprecedented what the Israelis did, and nowhere near as predictable as you claim, but that's another issue).

    Let's extend your logic: "I don't know about you but if I was black and wanted to marry a white woman in Alabama in the 1930's, I'd expect to be lynched. therefore, quit your whining the lot of you liberal do-gooders."

    Or: "I don't know about you but if I was going to protest against segregation in the US in the 1930's I'd expect to be assasinated. therefore no-one should complain when it happens".

    Etc., etc., etc.

    But wouldn't we all be better off if everyone thoguht like you eh MacGuffin?

    This point was already dealt with in the thread btw.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #104
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    Israel's attack on the peace flotilla in open seas has got to be a violation of international law.
    The United States must cut off military aid to Israel now.
    Because the US never violates international law? Because the US never sponsors terrorism or sanctions human rights violations?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Israel has no moral right to blockade Gaza.
    Fighters in Gaza were/are shooting rockets into Israeli cities. The expressed purpose of the blockade was to prevent the flow of weapons into Gaza. The moral principle of self defense applies.

    And: firing live ammunition, and then keeping on firing at people who are unarmed and running away, is not a proportionate response to a beating.
    The soldier who was beaten and thrown off the deck also had to pull a knife out of his abdomen. Others were shot. They were unable to hold back the mob with paintball guns. They had to use lethal force to defend themselves.

    They had in fact decided to defend the ship by force so that the Israelis couldn't take it over - which is completely legitimate.
    They had no chance. By trying to kill their opponent, they forced reciprocation. They were either ill-tempered fools or it was a calculated sacrifice to make sway public opinion against Israel.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    They only killed 9?

    That's pretty pathetic. A good ship-to-ship missile would've been far more effective.
    You sir, win many internets for the lulz.

    Anyhow, as for that festering, stinking rathole known as Gaza:

    Well gee whiz, if there wouldn't be any rockets, or, you know, suicide bombers coming from there, we wouldn't have any damn blockades, would we?

    And guess what? If Israel says "no damn cement, they use it to build bunkers to shoot rockets out of", how hard is it to say "okay, we won't bring cement, you can come and check our cargo"?

    I mean the attack on the flotilla may not have been the most diplomatic move (it certainly was one of the more badass, especially fitting for a former commando such as Bibi Netanyahu), and honestly, I think a bit of badass every now and then is needed these days when all the politicians just play nice with each other. Screw nice. Kick a little bit of ass every now and then to show that threats still have teeth.

    After all, what did Teddy Roosevelt say?

    Oh, right...

    "Speak softly, but carry a big stick."

    And now, so many people around the world are shocked when a big stick is used by someone who has it.

    Now, onto more over-arching matters:

    Notice that whenever Israel is put into the headlights for any conflict, while some people may honestly have legitimate concerns over those poor Palestinians (who wouldn't be so poor if they would, you know, work on building their nation and not launching rockets/suicide bombers at every opportunity), many more are simply closet Jew-haters (just so you don't get all technical on the "most Jews in Israel aren't even semitic!" when I say anti-semitic). It's the way it was throughout history, and the way it still is today. And now with the internet, it's a lot easier to make a gaffe such as saying "why are we pandering to the Jews" instead of "Zionists/right wingers/etc."

    Guess what? When you say "Why are we pandering to the Jews?", that's who you are in the dark--who you really are.

    Another thing...

    What the hell is with these "rules of war"? The Geneva conventions are an outdated piece of crap that does nothing today, aside from tying the hands of civilized nations.

    Because guess what?

    Subhuman beasts such as Al Qaeda and Hamas and Hezbollah break every damn rule in the Geneva Conventions like it's their job! And what do people do? Blame Israel when it fights back.

    I realize that a lot of people like to preach tolerance and diversity and political correctness, but come on, this censorship and censure is exactly what terrorists like Osama Bin Laden and Ismael Haniyeh want! They want the criticism of Islam to be treated lightly.

    But honestly, anyone who would simply analyze Islam from a historical perspective would know that it was founded by a guy who was a damn mass murderer, because that was the history of Saudi Arabia in the 7th century AD. There were next to no natural resources, and violence erupted left and right. When Mohammed died, there was immediately a power vacuum and a war erupted over that! (I believe that's how Sunni and Shia got their split?) But moreover, Islam is a damned religion, and throughout history, religion has probably been the cause of more war and bloodletting than all other reasons combined (perhaps WW2 notwithstanding).

    Anyhoo, as to all the critics of Israel:

    Go live in Sderot or Ashkelon and get rockets rained down on you at any given opportunity. And then say that Israel has no right to defend itself. Because guess what? When was the last time another nation even attacked the contiguous United States? The war of 1812? Or maybe the Mexican war sometime later that century. Either way, WWI happened in Europe, and America entered WW2 since Hawaii was attacked (heck, it wasn't even a state back then! Hawaii became a state in 1948!)

    So in the end, it really doesn't matter what any of us here think--Israel's leaders really don't give a damn compared to the safety of the Israeli people--and odds are--when push comes to shove--if having to make the choice between obeying international laws and protecting their citizens by any means necessary, Israeli leaders will always take the second choice.

    So honestly, quit all your whining. The Palestinians have long made their own bed. If the Palestinian people truly want aid that much, then they can lay down their arms, end their resistance, and try to win the trust of the international community in that they won't subvert any good-intentioned aid to make bunkers, or use international funds to buy rockets.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    They only killed 9?

    That's pretty pathetic. A good ship-to-ship missile would've been far more effective.
    Crass. Civilians died and were brutalized. Show some respect.

    Paveen Yaqub, from Manchester, was on board the Mavi Marmara, on which nine people were killed when it was stormed by Israeli commandos on Monday.

    She said she was later kicked and abused by two Israeli policemen.



    "They were kicking my legs to make me fall and mocking me in Hebrew," she said. "They were trying to take trophy pictures with me and they liked laughing in my face.
    "They also searched me but I won't go into that. They took pleasure in humiliating us."
    Speaking at Istanbul Airport, where planes full of hundreds of deportees landed on Thursday morning, she said the experience had been "a nightmare".
    "We were terrorized for the last few days by the Israeli authorities," she said, visibly shaken and holding back tears. "It was an insane situation. I'm exhausted. I haven't slept for days. I was on hunger strike for the last few hours."
    Ms Yaqub said that the Israeli authorities had tried to force her to sign a document written in Hebrew, but she refused.
    Sarah Colborne, director of campaigns and operations at the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, was also on board the Mavi Marmara.
    Insisting that no one on board the boat was armed, she said the attack was an act of piracy and a "massacre".
    At one point, she saw a man being shot dead by an Israeli commando.
    "We still don't know how many people were actually murdered because there are still many missing," she said.
    "When I was on the upper deck I saw an injured person being brought to the back of the deck being tended to by a doctor and someone who is trained in first aid. He was shot in the head. It was clear it was not some paint ball. It was a bullet." Ms Colborne described scenes of chaos on the ship in the moments after the Israelis boarded.
    "As I walked up, the dinghies the Israelis used were bristling with arms. I couldn't even count how many ships there were in the water. It was just literally bristling with ships, helicopters, gunfire. The whole thing was just horrific.
    "All I know is that there was gunfire everywhere around." The people on board the ship had no idea that the Israelis might use deadly force, she said.
    "We had no weapons. We were on a peaceful humanitarian mission. We knew there might be problems with the Israelis because of the way they treated previous convoys in the past and because of the way they treat the Palestinian people.

    At least the UN has now demanded the blockade be lifted. Let's hope they didn't die in vain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #108
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Fighters in Gaza were/are shooting rockets into Israeli cities. The expressed purpose of the blockade was to prevent the flow of weapons into Gaza. The moral principle of self defense applies.


    The soldier who was beaten and thrown off the deck also had to pull a knife out of his abdomen. Others were shot. They were unable to hold back the mob with paintball guns. They had to use lethal force to defend themselves.


    They had no chance. By trying to kill their opponent, they forced reciprocation. They were either ill-tempered fools or it was a calculated sacrifice to make sway public opinion against Israel.
    Ah I see. So far from being a disinterested and objective observer who thinks "we should wait for more information", you're actually a pro-zionist who believes whatever the IDF tells you. Your idea of "more information" is "wait until the Israelis tell me the party line"
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    You know something that strikes me is when the news about this broke I kind of wasnt shocked, just about any other nation I'd be wondered WTF but Israel? Nope.

    Sometimes I wonder if its a kind of general softening up of the world through incrementally greater actions of this kind to the point that we'll all be desensitised if they go into Palestinian ghetto and deciminate it or kill everyone older than fifthteen or something and call it a police action.

    Generally I think the world should look ahead to the day when the Israelis dont have the Palestinians to beat on, do they feel they're even with Germany yet? I dont think so, will they consider the rest of the world complicit in the holocaust? It could be likely.

    When a corner stone of your identity has been that you're persecuted and have to fight a perpetual war against anyone whose a different ethnicity for long enough it sticks, you'll keep finding substitutes for the "other" to keep on fighting.

  10. #110
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^That's a bit far-fetched. Let's stick with crimes that have already been committed, shall we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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