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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Or are you now going to claim that "should" statements are not loaded with an implication of ethical correctness?
    I interpret TCDA's rhetorical statement to be "Why should they not take action against a moral transgression...." For the sake of argument, I temporarily assumed that ethical correctness was not an issue.

    However, if you want to debate along that line..... the response to a transgression must be proportionate to the transgression. If you stole candy from me, I am not allowed to beat you to death out of anger. If I tried it but got killed in the process, you should still owe me candy, but you should not be punished if the homicide was necessitated by self defense. You cannot be expected to have to forfeit your life for a minor transgression.


    Ockham's razor applies. But if you like you can try applying your above principle to your own scenario and seeing how it undermines the fundamental right to self-defense in any case.
    As stated above, one's defensive action must be proportionate to the transgression.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    What has changed is the conclusory nature of your loaded, unlikely inference on a matter you can know nothing of (that the state of mind of people on a flotilla confronted by agents they routinely accuse of heavy handedness was not fear for their safety but some kind of suicidal, belligerent wish to make a pre-emptive attack on the IDF, with all its machinery)
    If you consider the mob's state of mind, then you would have to extend the same benefits to the commandos who shot them.

    it usually is
    I doubt you can back up that claim. Take a look at documented cases of mob violence.

    That's the very thing - You keep making statements on my behalf when I 'm perfectly capable of making them if I'd wished to do so. Then you argue with these statements you've made. Straw men.
    Trying to clarify your position is not a straw man fallacy. If you don't want to be misunderstood, then present your points clearly.

    What I did question is your foregone conclusion that they are not blameless. Truth (I hope) will out.
    It was an assertion that I hoped would be challenged on logical grounds. After all, what is the purpose of discussion forums?

    My sole aim is to point out that your "statement of fact" of international law is mere opinion, not settled matter of law, as you would present it. I find it intellectually repugnant to present it as such.
    My position is presented from an ethical consistency perspective, not a legal one. Leave the latter to the lawyers.

    I'm not debating you. Just showing up the aforementioned repugnance.
    Intellectual repugnance? You mean you're pissed off. In this context, I'm interested in the logical consistency of arguments, not feelings.

  3. #93
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    From 30 to 10 to 9.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  4. #94
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    From 30 to 10 to 9.
    Remember the "Jenin Massacre"? That's the way these stories tend to play out, which is why I am careful to reserve judgment whenever an Israeli/Palestinian story breaks. The fog in this ongoing low-grade war is very thick...though I would very much like to know why Israel didn't wait until the flotilla entered Gazan territorial waters before acting.

  5. #95
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What's the use of having a blockade if it's not enforced? The activists clearly announced their intent to cross. That gives the Israelis cause to board and search their vessel. Every country does this.


    No. There are rules of engagement. If you intend to run a country's blockade, you can expect to be boarded. If you resist with deadly force, then you can expect reciprocation.
    Yet more obfuscation

    Israel has no moral right to blockade Gaza.

    But quite apart from that, it has no legal right to police Gaza's borders, it only has a legal right to police it's own. Seeing as the ship was not within Israel's borders, they didn't even have a legal right to block it, much less board it with armed soldiers and take it over by force.

    And: firing live ammunition, and then keeping on firing at people who are unarmed and running away, is not a proportionate response to a beating.

    Also it's funny how you keep callign the people on the ship a "mob" as if all collective resistance is irrational and undesirable. This simply displays your own ideological prejudices. They had in fact decided to defend the ship by force so that the Israelis couldn't take it over - which is completely legitimate. It's like you defending your home if someone tried to rob you.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #96
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    though I would very much like to know why Israel didn't wait until the flotilla entered Gazan territorial waters before acting.
    They obviously thought they could make a show of impunity and intimidate the Palestinians and their supporters. Didn't work:

    Tuesday, June 01, 2010

    Israel: the cost posted by lenin

    In addition to being a singularly brutal act, Israel's attack on the Gaza Freedom flotilla may well constitute its most reckless, idiotic gambit to date. It has done irreparable damage to its relationship with one of longest standing regional allies, resulting in Turkey's decision to send armed naval ships along with future aid convoys to the Gaza strip. It has led Egypt to re-open the Rafah crossing indefinitely, thus effectively breaking the blockade. The opinion of Quartet leaders, whose assistance in enforcing the barricades and normalising Israel's behaviour, would appear to have been shifted pragmatically against continuing with the blockade policy. Tony Blair, the grotesque representative of the Quartet in the Middle East, has allowed that Israel must surely find a "better" way to "help" the people of Gaza. Now, it seems that Israel has been forced to agree to release all foreigners kidnapped from the flotilla by its armed forces. I have to suppose that this attack was supposed to terrorise pro-Palestinian activists, deter aid to Gaza, and deliver a rather unsubtle slap in the face to the Turkish leadership for having taken to criticising some of Israel's policies, notably Cast Lead. It was intended, I guess, to remind people who was boss. It would appear to have achieved just the opposite, and given the people of Gaza a potential breathing space.
    LENIN'S TOMB
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #97
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    From 30 to 10 to 9.
    Thankfully it wasn't as bad as first reported (by Israeli sources). But it's also worth mentioning the 480 arrests and the many injuries.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #98
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    It sucks that everyone jumped to conclusions on this issue. I haven't seen this video of the attack taken by the IDF posted here yet, which paints a rather different picture...

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo[/YOUTUBE]

    To state my position: I really hate the blockage and the reckless murder of innocent civilians in Gaza by Israel. A lot of the way the Israeli government behaves is morally repugnant to me, however I realize there are two sides to every story. I think few countries would endure years of constant rocket fire on their towns and cities with anything resembling calm restraint - Israel is guilty of no more than what most countries would do if in similar situation. This doesn't excuse the behaviour of the IDF, but I don't like the self-righteous lecturing from people that have never lived with the sort of threats Israel has. Granted, Israel needs to do more to resolve the problem and bring about a Palestinian state but the situation isn't a simple black and white issue. There are extremists on both sides that will do anything to prevent any progress toward a fair and just settlement.

    I really hate how Israel is universally painted as the big bad guy in the international media. I understand it is the opposite is the case in the America media - this I also despise. I just wish there was a bit more balance brought to the issue, then people would better understand the conflict instead of being fed propoganda for one side.

  9. #99
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    They only killed 9?

    That's pretty pathetic. A good ship-to-ship missile would've been far more effective.

  10. #100
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It sucks that everyone jumped to conclusions on this issue. I haven't seen this video of the attack taken by the IDF posted here yet, which paints a rather different picture...
    How does it paint a different picture? That is the information the whole debate in most of the thread was based on, and it is by far the most reported information in the west, sio what "balance" are you talking about?

    Generally I wouldn't consider fighting against the invasion of your ship in itnernational waters, with fists, to be a crime, and certainly not to justify being shot with live ammunition for, would you!?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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