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  1. #71
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I would say that Calvinism and various protestant creedos where incidentally pro-capitalist or had unintentional cultural affinities which remain in the psyche even today, its only become a more recent and modern phenomenon that there has been an attempt to merge modern US capitalism and Calvinistic protestantism in things like theonomics in the US.

    Which to be frank I think is a grotesque, like some teenager working out their identity who has decided to create something out of the "this and that" of pop culture which they like.

  2. #72
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I would say that Calvinism and various protestant creedos where incidentally pro-capitalist or had unintentional cultural affinities which remain in the psyche even today, its only become a more recent and modern phenomenon that there has been an attempt to merge modern US capitalism and Calvinistic protestantism in things like theonomics in the US.

    Which to be frank I think is a grotesque, like some teenager working out their identity who has decided to create something out of the "this and that" of pop culture which they like.
    Larky, my dear Larky.

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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To be honest I'd say that Catholicism is Uncapitalist rather than anti-capitalist and that, because of being deeply conservative in policies and being agonistic about the "disobedience" involved in trade unionism, agitation and insubordination its generally "incidentially" or "objectively" pro-capitalist.
    Uncapitalist would certainly be an accurate description of the positions of both Catholicism and Orthodoxy in regards to this issue. Although I should note that Pope Leo XIII noted in Rerum Novarum, that workers do have rights to form unions and agitate for better conditions. There's been plenty of Catholic involvement in the labor movement.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Okay then as I said before the question should be can capitalism survive without calvinism, which my answer is still yes...
    The problem is you have to explain the consistent correlation between the two. Now I've already noted about capitalism's origins being tied into the rise of Protestantism; not to mention that the three major protestant powers were also the major capitalist-industrial powers in the world(England, Germany, America). This connection was not ignored in much of 19th century Social Darwinist polemics.

    Yet even when capitalism seems to take its hold in originally non-Protestant cultures, the rise of Protestantism as a force doesnt seem that far behind. Whether as the chicken or the egg, the connection is still clear.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Uncapitalist would certainly be an accurate description of the positions of both Catholicism and Orthodoxy in regards to this issue. Although I should note that Pope Leo XIII noted in Rerum Novarum, that workers do have rights to form unions and agitate for better conditions. There's been plenty of Catholic involvement in the labor movement.
    That's been pretty interesting really, its ambiguous and in some contexts has lead to RC unions independent of other unions or RC workers committees which split and split only to join too late with other opponents of regimes like in Germany with the Iron Column which opposed the Nazis.

    There was support for Solidarity in Poland but also support for or at the very, very least complicity in mass murder of people on the grounds of little more than possessing union cards under Franco's regime.

    The current Pope has real issues with the "disobedience" of unionism, pretty much never got over a bunch of idiot marxist kids disrupting lectures at a university he worked in.

  6. #76
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    i think this is getting too complicated, when we can just ask... can anything survive indefinitely without Christianity? Im gonna say... nope.

  7. #77
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    Well having to contend with the influence of anti-clerical socialists was often a grave concern for RCs dealing with working class issues; as well as dealing with the influence of reactionary integrists too. These helped plague the efforts of the Worker priests in France for example. Nevertheless, the volume of activism on the part of RCs for the rights of workers is still well attested to.

    The current Pope has real issues with the "disobedience" of unionism, pretty much never got over a bunch of idiot marxist kids disrupting lectures at a university he worked in.
    Where exactly does Pope Benedict give off this impression?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The problem is you have to explain the consistent correlation between the two. Now I've already noted about capitalism's origins being tied into the rise of Protestantism; not to mention that the three major protestant powers were also the major capitalist-industrial powers in the world(England, Germany, America). This connection was not ignored in much of 19th century Social Darwinist polemics.

    Yet even when capitalism seems to take its hold in originally non-Protestant cultures, the rise of Protestantism as a force doesnt seem that far behind. Whether as the chicken or the egg, the connection is still clear.
    Well if you want to make it out that capitalism is a staple of christianity and a reflection of core christian values then who am I to stop you? To be consistent though, I'd like to suggest altering the lord's prayer to something more like this - YouTube - Akon - I'm So Paid ft. Lil Wayne, Young Jeezy

    just so the christian message can be more clearly understood....

    Imagine sunday school at the local protestant church

    Pastor: "I'm so paid, you know I keep a pocketful
    Ha ha, and that's before the taxes
    Took my whole gross, now they hid it under my mattress
    I used to get bored, count 20's for practice
    Paper therapy, we let the money relax us"

    kids: yeah!

    Pastor: "Hey-ey-ey I'm so paid"

    kids: "number one hustler gettin money, why you wanna count my money? I'm a hustler and don't need them, one of ya'll and you see I'm so paid"

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well having to contend with the influence of anti-clerical socialists was often a grave concern for RCs dealing with working class issues; as well as dealing with the influence of reactionary integrists too. These helped plague the efforts of the Worker priests in France for example. Nevertheless, the volume of activism on the part of RCs for the rights of workers is still well attested to.



    Where exactly does Pope Benedict give off this impression?
    I dont have chapter and verse but there where a lot of interviews he gave about the time he went to meet with Hans Kung shortly after he stopped being Ratzinger and started being Benedict.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Well if you want to make it out that capitalism is a staple of christianity and a reflection of core christian values then who am I to stop you?
    Well it's quite clear you weren't paying attention, so I'm not bothering with you anymore. I'm just going to laugh at you from now on.

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