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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Not if one studies the origins of capitalism and it's reliance upon the "Protestant work ethic".
    Are you actually going to address my points or is this just a dick measuring contest? I'm going to assume that you're male (I apologize if I'm wrong) - so thus it is safe to say that your penis is definitely bigger than mine... so can we actually have a debate now or what?

    Sigh...

    edit: is the protestant work ethic all encompassing for a "christian work ethic" and then still we have the issue of the pope finding portions of capitalism "anit-christian"... the points I made in my previous post are valid.. you can't just toss around "christianity" without defining what that means... So it either is or is not true that most christians agree with the pope in regards to capitalism being "anti-christian"...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Are you actually going to address my points or is this just a dick measuring contest?
    Make some actual coherent points, and I will address them. I've already pointed to the ties between the origins of Capitalism with the rise of Protestantism, and even referred to the studies of Max Weber and Karl Polyani on the matter.

    Rather than address this, you keep insisting upon talking about Catholicism, even though the Church's social doctrine isn't against capitalism per se(as your own link stated). It is against a laissez-faire form of it, but that does not equal anti-capitalist. Catholic social teaching on economics is more compatible with a social market economy, which itself was derived from Christian Democratic teachings(of which Catholics played a prominent role). Yet a social market economy is not anti-capitalist.

    edit: is the protestant work ethic all encompassing for a "christian work ethic" and then still we have the issue of the pope finding portions of capitalism "anit-christian"... the points I made in my previous post are valid.. you can't just toss around "christianity" without defining what that means... So it either is or is not true that most christians agree with the pope in regards to capitalism being "anti-christian"...
    You're doing it once again. I clearly mention Protestantism here, and you keep insisting on bringing up the Pope.

  3. #63
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Why do South Koreans work so much, even if they're not protestant? Clearly, this association between protestatantism and work ethic suffer from post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why do South Koreans work so much, even if they're not protestant? Clearly, this association between protestatantism and work ethic suffer from post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.
    Yeah ok:
    South Korea's rapid economic growth in the 1960s and 1970s is usually credited to the policy of export-oriented industrialization led by Park Chung-hee (박정희), who was a devout Buddhist. But many South Korean Christians view their religious faith as a factor in the country's dramatic economic growth over the past three decades, believing that its success and prosperity are indications of God's blessing. It is, of course, difficult to isolate this factor from the effects of other influences such as indigenous cultural values and work ethic, a strong alliance with the United States, and the infusion of foreign capital.

    A 2003 study by economists Robert J. Barro and Rachel McCleary [45] suggests that societies with high levels of belief in heaven and low levels of church attendance also exhibit high rates of economic growth. Barro and McCleary's model has been influential in subsequent scholarship and, to some observers [46] [47], it supports the belief that Christianity has played a major role in South Korea's economic success. The study has also been criticised by scholars such as Durlauf, Kortellos, and Tan (2006), who argue on statistical grounds that there is little evidence connecting religion and economic growth either directly or indirectly. [48]

    The confidence of South Korean Christians in the social and economic benefits of their faith has been a factor in the spread of Christianity in South Korea. There is much appreciation in South Korea for the statistical growth, impressive organization, and attractive buildings [49] of many Christian groups. People quite naturally want to associate themselves with prosperity and success, and insofar as they see Christianity as the source of those things, they will be more likely to accept it as an important influence in their lives.

    Christianity in Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  5. #65
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Of course South Korean Christians are going to say that, c'mon! I also think that Inter Milan has always been the best team in the world!

    Next stop: why do Japanese people come as close second to Koreans in terms of hours worked per year? Are you going to say that its 2% Christian population has been the main cause?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #66
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    1/3 of South Koreans are Christians, and 2/3 of them are Protestant. So the consistent correlation still exists here.

  7. #67
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I saw the title of this thread and immediately knew it was a Lark thread.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Make some actual coherent points, and I will address them. I've already pointed to the ties between the origins of Capitalism with the rise of Protestantism, and even referred to the studies of Max Weber and Karl Polyani on the matter.
    Okay then as I said before the question should be can capitalism survive without calvinism, which my answer is still yes...

    if you want to ask the question can capitalism survive without christianity then you have to define christianity... as I said before - this isn't about the pope or catholics but rather what christians as a whole consider "christian" morals/ethics... this is the point you keep side stepping with semantics rather than addressing it with facts...

    - Religion: Protestantism & Capitalism - TIME

    - lifeissues | Catholicism, Protestantism, and Capitalism, Part II

    from the above article you can clearly see that "christianity" and capitalism are not very complimentary unless you pick and chose which "division" of "christianity" you want to follow.....

    thus back to my original point of either you have to say that catholics are incorrectly interpreting the bible and thus the protestants are true "christians" or the protestants have created a miscarriage of "christian" morals to suit their own needs...

    you really can't have it both ways... So, to say that capitalism is based on "christian" ethics and morals is deceptive because that implies that all christians find capitalism to be inline with christian teachings and this is not the case....

    thus you can ask if capitalism can survive without protestants or calvinism, but you can't bundle "christianity" in there as a whole because clearly not all christians agree... thus it is necessary to ascertain just how many christians actually agree or disagree with the protestant version of christianity....

    the term "christian morals" cannot be taken seriously otherwise... unless we are going to afford the same luxuries to the mormon church whenever they claim the unorthodox beliefs they practice are christian....

    you can side step this issue, but if you're being logical it wont go away...

    what is a "christian" ethic/moral... does it have to be widely accepted by the majority of christians to count? Or can anybody that believes in Jesus start a sect of christianity and have their ethics/morals branded as "christian" even if the majority of christians disagree with their interpretation?

    Again as I said before you can't have it both ways...

  9. #69
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Make some actual coherent points, and I will address them. I've already pointed to the ties between the origins of Capitalism with the rise of Protestantism, and even referred to the studies of Max Weber and Karl Polyani on the matter.

    Rather than address this, you keep insisting upon talking about Catholicism, even though the Church's social doctrine isn't against capitalism per se(as your own link stated). It is against a laissez-faire form of it, but that does not equal anti-capitalist. Catholic social teaching on economics is more compatible with a social market economy, which itself was derived from Christian Democratic teachings(of which Catholics played a prominent role). Yet a social market economy is not anti-capitalist.



    You're doing it once again. I clearly mention Protestantism here, and you keep insisting on bringing up the Pope.
    To be honest I'd say that Catholicism is Uncapitalist rather than anti-capitalist and that, because of being deeply conservative in policies and being agonistic about the "disobedience" involved in trade unionism, agitation and insubordination its generally "incidentially" or "objectively" pro-capitalist.

    I'm thinking of both Mussolini and Franco's regimes here, which the Church was at the very least weak in its opposition to, although Le Duce did march on Rome and tell them that he could have his blackshirts take the place apart if he wanted.

    In truth, and its not because I'm politically "pan-catholic" or an "apologist" or anything like that, I dont recognise any of those labels others have used for me, I think the Church is very old and in its assessment of economics and capitalism it is deeply ambivalent, as though its all part of the modernist artifice that they suspect isnt going to last with everyone eventually reverting to some kind of medevialism for better or worse.

    Its simultaneously a strength and a weakness, I think a strength because the Church hasnt been so easily seduced by modern ideologies (OK perhaps because it was jealous of rivals) and I mean that in the broadest possible sense, ideology with a small i aswell as liberalism, conservatism, marxism, socialism, communism, nazism, fascism. It is a really different/alternative thinking and living based on norms pretty much eclipsed, dismissed, forgotten. However there are basic objections, such as to disobedience to authorities, which I think allow for stagnation, nostalgia, ativistism too.

    The memory of the Church pre-dates capitalism, its golden age surely does predate it, and it operates in so many contexts and environments where capitalism and economics isnt relevent at all, at least not in any cultural or easily recognisable sense.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    I saw the title of this thread and immediately knew it was a Lark thread.
    Man I really laughed at this

    Although I'd be interested why or in what that means, I personally associate threads like these with Peguy and others who've participated the most in this one.

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