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  1. #51
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    - Pope John Paul II, Capitalism, and Liberation Theology: Economic Justice vs. the Free Market in the West
    - The Catholic View of Economics

    after reading these articles it seems to me that capitalism and christianity aren't agreeing on certain crucial points. So I'm not sure how "true" christianity can be associated with capitalism... seems like bullshit to me.
    Did you happen to read this part in the first link?

    It would be a serious mistake, though, to suggest that Pope John Paul II was anti-capitalist. He definitely recognized many virtues that a capitalist economic system brings, especially when combined with general social, political, and religious freedom. In his 1991 encyclical Centesimus Annus, he explicitly accepted and justified the practices of capitalist economic institutions as normative and only asked that Catholic social teaching be used as a moderating influence to avoid some excesses.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Did you happen to read this part in the first link?
    yeah I did.. did you read the rest of the article? I never said christianity was anitcapitalist, simply that there are many aspects of capitalism that do not work out with christian teachings.

    I guess that's the cool part with being protestant though, you can pick and chose which parts of the bible you want to ignore and when. Guess that's why I'm not religious - that part really doesn't make sense to me...

    "Thus John Paul simultaneously accepts and justifies those institutions and practices — at least in an abstract general sense — as normative, as the way economics, for example, ought to be, and then complains because the results of economics-as-it-outght-to-be are anti-Christian, unjust, and oppressive. ...["

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    I guess that's the cool part with being protestant though, you can pick and chose which parts of the bible you want to ignore and when. Guess that's why I'm not religious - that part really doesn't make sense to me...
    You obviously haven't been here long, or else you'd know I'm clearly Catholic.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You obviously haven't been here long, or else you'd know I'm clearly Catholic.
    I wasn't talking about you specifically... I simply said that if they are relating the protestant teachings to the rise of capitalism then it clearly must be because protestants are choosing to disregard the portions of the bible that other christian religions find to be incompatible with capitalism... You're the only one taking this discussion personally.

    Nice that you're catholic, I was raised catholic and think it's all bullshit - now back on topic...

    clearly the pope thinks capitalism is anti-christian, so logically speaking it's hard to say that these two things go hand in hand unless a.) the catholic church is interpreting the bible wrong or b.) the protestants are ignoring parts of the bible that they don't find compatible with capitalism for their own personal gain or c.) the people that think capitalism and christianity are associated are full of shit.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    I wasn't talking about you specifically... I simply said that if they are relating the protestant teachings to the rise of capitalism then it clearly must be because protestants are choosing to disregard the portions of the bible that other christian religions find to be incompatible with capitalism... You're the only one taking this discussion personally.
    Actually Im not taking this personally, Im just disputing your thesis here. Capitalism is largely connected to the rise of Protestantism, and does rely to a great extent upon a form of Protestant ethics - whether in their original religious form or a secularized variation. Max Weber noted this connection, and IIRC so did Karl Polyani in his study The Great Transformation concerning the rise of the market society.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Actually Im not taking this personally, Im just disputing your thesis here. Capitalism is largely connected to the rise of Protestantism, and does rely to a great extent upon a form of Protestant ethics - whether in their original religious form or a secularized variation. Max Weber noted this connection, and IIRC so did Karl Polyani in his study The Great Transformation concerning the rise of the market society.
    my "thesis" has nothing to do with you being catholic and your statements above are not addressing the issue. It seems that many aspects of capitalism are not compatible with christian teachings. So, it either is or is not christian to engage in the capitalists practices that the pope deemed "anti-christian"... if it is christian to do these things then the pope is wrong and the protestants are right, if it is not christian to do these things then apparently christianity and capitalism are not as compatible as certain people are suggesting. This really is that simple...

  7. #57
    Sniffles
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    The problem is you keep insisting that Christianity is some vague monolith, without considering divisions within such. Not just Catholic vs Protestant, but also the Orthodox. The fact still remains that Protestantism, specifically Calvinism, is the most closely tied to capitalism. If you want to argue which form is more geniunely "Christian"; then perhaps another thread devoted to general theology is more in order - since the social doctrines of each brand is derived from basic theological assumptions.

  8. #58
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    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The problem is you keep insisting that Christianity is some vague monolith, without considering divisions within such. Not just Catholic vs Protestant, but also the Orthodox. The fact still remains that Protestantism, specifically Calvinism, is the most closely tied to capitalism. If you want to argue which form is more geniunely "Christian"; then perhaps another thread devoted to general theology is more in order - since the social doctrines of each brand is derived from basic theological assumptions.
    then perhaps the question should be can capitalism survive without calvinism, to which my answer would still be yes...

    Either way if you're going to say that christianity and capitalism are compatible and some of the greatest christian figures of our time disagree with that statement and thus find capitalism to be "anit-christian" then I think you definitely have a problem if you're trying to associate "christianity" with capitalism... the divisions are irrelevant here since no one "division" can claim to speak for all of christianity - thus in order to solve this problem you'd have to determine what percentage of "christianity" thinks the pope is wrong regarding his statements about capitalism being "anit-christian".... because if you don't the term "christian" morals/ethics have no meaning...

    Morals either are or are not "christian"... if they aren't accepted by "christians" as a whole then it doesn't make sense to call them "christian"... for example there are still some mormons that support polygamy, so can they argue that since they are christian polygamy is a "christian" way of life? - LDS FAQ: Are Mormons (Latter-day Saints) Christian? Yes! Mormons are Christians.

    you really can't have it both ways....

  10. #60
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    then perhaps the question should be can capitalism survive without calvinism, to which my answer would still be yes...
    Not if one studies the origins of capitalism and it's reliance upon the "Protestant work ethic".

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