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  1. #41
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You cannot speak about morals without borrowing from christian theology. There is no objective morality inherent in atheism. There is no right or wrong... there just is what is. Therefore you can't make moral judgements of Christianity or even murderers for that matter.
    .
    Are you implying that Christianity has a monopoly on Morals?
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  2. #42
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It seems to be doing just fine in China.
    Oh really?

    Christianity — repressed, marginalized and, in many cases, illegal in China for more than half a century — is sweeping the country, overflowing churches and posing a sensitive challenge to the officially atheist Communist Party.

    By some estimates Christian churches, most of them underground, now have roughly 70 million members, as many as the party itself. A growing number of those Christians are in fact party members.

    Christianity is thriving in part because it offers a moral framework to citizens adrift in an age of Wild West capitalism that has not only exacted a heavy toll in corruption and pollution but also harmed the global image of products "Made in China."

    Some Chinese Christians argue that their faith is an unexpected boon for the Communist Party, because it shores up the economic foundation that is central to sustaining party rule.

    "With economic development, morality and ethics in China are degenerating quickly," prayer leader Zhang Wei told the crowd at Jin's church as worshipers bowed their heads. "Holy Father, please save the Chinese people's soul."
    Jesus in China: Christianity's rapid rise - chicagotribune.com

  3. #43
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    What is the point of this? I thought the major religions in China were Taoism and Buddhism.

    This 70 million would be about 3% of the religious population.

    Edit: The irreligious population is 8%, apparently. Oh my.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    What is the point of this?
    The growth of capitalism in China is also seeing the rapid rise of Christianity as a force, and much of it is spreading among the more educated classes - and in many cases is being given support from the government. So the connection here isnt hard to find.

    Now go back to being a village atheist.

  5. #45
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The growth of capitalism in China is also seeing the rapid rise of Christianity as a force, and much of it is spreading among the more educated classes - and in many cases is being given support from the government. So the connection here isnt hard to find.
    The government is secretly Christian? I still don't get it.

    Now go back to being a village atheist.
    What the Hell?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  6. #46
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The growth of capitalism in China is also seeing the rapid rise of Christianity as a force, and much of it is spreading among the more educated classes - and in many cases is being given support from the government. So the connection here isnt hard to find.
    Numbers, please. And no, some puff piece in a right-leaning rag isn't going to satisfy.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The growth of capitalism in China is also seeing the rapid rise of Christianity as a force, and much of it is spreading among the more educated classes - and in many cases is being given support from the government. So the connection here isnt hard to find.

    Now go back to being a village atheist.
    I think it's laughable that you assume China needs christianity in order to successfully maintain capitalism. China has been capitalist for years, and it is the rampant corruption that plagues the capitalistic west that China needs a reprieve from. Some are turning to christianity but others are turning to religions more native to China. It seems to me that the people in power in China (the rich business men that are responsible for the christianity movement) are looking for a way to control and unify their workers and fellow colleagues. In an article I read in the chicago tribune they seem to be concerned with a lack of ethics... and they think that christianity can provide them with a solution to this problem. - Jesus in China: Christianity's rapid rise - chicagotribune.com

    The issue is simply that ethics and christian nations do not go hand in hand. One only needs to think back to the crusades to remember that Christianity does not provide the practicing nation with any kind of moral upper hand. Then think to the economic crisis in the USA caused by a very christian nation and spear headed by a very christian government during the Bush years.

    If people want to see ethics in capitalism they need to legislate big business and ensure that they do business honestly... this really isn't that hard. The truth is it's just not very christian to charge a shit load of interest to consumers, kick them out of their house when they can't pay following job loss, deny them state of the art medical treatments because they don't have insurance and technically can be turned away from the hospital until their condition becomes life threatening.... none of this sounds like the message Jesus had in mind.

    So the truth is that many christians are human and therefore hypocritical and while they go to church and pray on sunday they fuck their fellow country men in the ass on Monday - Saturday all in the name of god money. So it seems to be that capitalism might have a more difficult time surviving if big business actually practiced christian values and forgave loans for people that fall on bad times despite no wrong doing on their part and let family's who just lost their father in the war stay in their homes rather than foreclosing on them, or let a poor old lady get the best medical treatment even though she can't afford it - but I think we all know that won't be happening anytime soon.

    So I think capitalism can survive and even thrive without christianity or any other religion with very strict laws clearly explaining to both consumers and
    corporations what will and will not be tolerated and what is and is not fair. Since christianity is obviously no guarantee that a nation will conduct it's business practices ethically or morally.

    So in short I think we can see that religion does not equal morality - since religion is practiced by humans and many of them are corrupt.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    I think it's laughable that you assume China needs christianity in order to successfully maintain capitalism.
    What's more laughable is your assumption that I even argued such a thing. I'm just noting the clear correlation between the rise of capitalism and the rise of Christianity as a force in China. Christianity was rapidly spreading in China throughout the early 20th century and was only cut short by the Communist revolution in 1949.

    The relationship between the rise of capitalism as a result of the rise of Protestantism has long been noted among sociologists, particularly with Max Weber's famous study on the matter. So yeah just keep it up.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So yeah just keep it up.
    maybe you wouldn't be misunderstood if you communicated more clearly. Either way, if by keep it up, you mean continue to discredit correlations based on opinion and not fact, then sure no problem. Always glad to help.

    edit: so again I'll state that according to certain christian religious figures - Brief History of Christianity and Capitalism - christianity and capitalism are not compatible and as I see it simply legislation can promote business practices and ethics that are inline with capitalism. You certainly don't need christianity to do this, since it seems most of our current business practices today are anti-christian.

    - Pope John Paul II, Capitalism, and Liberation Theology: Economic Justice vs. the Free Market in the West
    - The Catholic View of Economics

    after reading these articles it seems to me that capitalism and christianity aren't agreeing on certain crucial points. So I'm not sure how "true" christianity can be associated with capitalism... seems like bullshit to me.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Either way, if by keep it up, you mean continue to discredit correlations based on opinion and not fact, then sure no problem. Always glad to help.
    Keep talking, keep talking.

    edit: so again I'll state that according to certain christian religious figures - Brief History of Christianity and Capitalism - christianity and capitalism are not compatible
    Ahh I see you're citing a Catholic source here. Certainly Catholicism and capitalism are not compatible. Once again, it's a completely different story when concerning Protestantism; although Rodney Stark has recently tried to challenge that assumption by noting the origins of capitalism within Late Medieval and early Renaissance Italy - ie within a Catholic milleu.

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