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  1. #31
    Lasting_Pain
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    Hmmm, just curious. Are we operating off the premise that Christianity is the one true religion and without it we are in for a meaningless and dull life. If the answer to this question is yes, then I must say I need to safely parachute from this thread before it collapses into an all out rego war.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    But without Christianity what is harmful and what is good becomes meaningless.
    I think that depends on who you ask. I don't believe in religion at all - but "harmful" and "good" still have meaning for me. They are just defined individually rather than by christianity or any other religion.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I think these actions obtain even more meaning in the absence of an eternal reward, simply because, to do good, in the midst of this seemingly great despair, requires an honest desire to be good, not for oneself, but for others, and for future generations. To me, this idea of god, saps the worth out of the action itself. In a god world, the action of being good, without god, becomes meaningless, thus god renders good meaningless, himself.
    This is a great point!
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  4. #34
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    The better question would be "Can Christianity survive in Capitalism on the long run ?"

  5. #35
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I think these actions obtain even more meaning in the absence of an eternal reward, simply because, to do good, in the midst of this seemingly great despair, requires an honest desire to be good, not for oneself, but for others, and for future generations. To me, this idea of god, saps the worth out of the action itself. In a god world, the action of being good, without god, becomes meaningless, thus god renders good meaningless, himself.
    Christians should not do good because they will receive an eternal reward. Christians should do good because they have already received an eternal reward. Christians do good because it brings glory to the most valuable being in the universe, God, who is deserving of such glory. In bringing glory to God they find real joy, because we do what we were created to do.

    Without God there is no moral absolutes. Without God your sentiments about doing good for future generations are nothing more than the results of chemical reactions in your brain... nothing more, nothing less. You say my view saps the worth, but in your view there is no absolute value to anything... it is completely subjective.



    Won't disagree with the fact that it is hard to debate god without talking about him.
    You miss the point entirely. You cannot speak about morals without borrowing from christian theology. There is no objective morality inherent in atheism. There is no right or wrong... there just is what is. Therefore you can't make moral judgements of Christianity or even murderers for that matter.

    Hopefully tomorrow I can actually talk about capitalism.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    I reckon, lark, that you are suggesting we need the guidance and morality religion provides.

    You can still have morals and not be religious.

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    It goes to show that there are ways of determining right choices without religion or even morality.

    Furthermore, when you determine your (capitalistic) choices based on game theory there are no cognitive or societal biases.
    (removed)

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Christians should not do good because they will receive an eternal reward.
    I think most Christians do good simply to prevent themselves from an eternity in Hell. It becomes an absolute requisite for a Christian to be moral, and to be good, and to be holy and pure, so that they may not fall from Gods grace - the Bible teaches this often. A Christian does good because God commands it, and he promises them a life of bliss and joy if they follow his commandments, and because they will receive this eternal reward by doing so. They do good, as god commands, to prevent eternal agony and suffering and to obtain bliss.

    Christians do good because it brings glory to the most valuable being in the universe, God, who is deserving of such glory. In bringing glory to God they find real joy, because we do what we were created to do.
    God brings me no joy.

    You miss the point entirely. You cannot speak about morals without borrowing from christian theology. There is no objective morality inherent in atheism. There is no right or wrong... there just is what is. Therefore you can't make moral judgements of Christianity or even murderers for that matter.
    No, actually, I can.
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  8. #38
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I think most Christians do good simply to prevent themselves from an eternity in Hell. It becomes an absolute requisite for a Christian to be moral, and to be good, and to be holy and pure, so that they may not fall from Gods grace - the Bible teaches this often. A Christian does good because God commands it, and he promises them a life of bliss and joy if they follow his commandments, and because they will receive this eternal reward by doing so. They do good, as god commands, to prevent eternal agony and suffering and to obtain bliss.
    Yes, that's what many christians believe, but that is moralism and a distortion of the gospel. Christ already sacrificed himself for his people. His work is finished and will slowly be worked out and realized through history. God is sovereign and his children will be judged on the basis of the righteousness of Christ and not their own works.

    God brings me no joy.
    "The rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous."

    God has given you and me more joy than we deserve.

    No, actually, I can.
    Ok, you can make a moral judgement. But, what you cannot do is explain how your moral judgement is in any way consistent with your beliefs... you cannot give an accounting for why you believe what you believe.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    ^ What do you think about pascal's wager?

  10. #40
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Yes, that's what many christians believe, but that is moralism and a distortion of the gospel. Christ already sacrificed himself for his people. His work is finished and will slowly be worked out and realized through history. God is sovereign and his children will be judged on the basis of the righteousness of Christ and not their own works.
    I suppose then, that you believe it impossible to fall from the graces of god? Interesting.

    "The rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous."

    God has given you and me more joy than we deserve.
    Heh. Thankfully, I know better than that, and I will build up my fellow man, and wish that we may have heaven on Earth.

    But, what you cannot do is explain how your moral judgement is in any way consistent with your beliefs... you cannot give an accounting for why you believe what you believe.
    Yes I can.
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    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



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