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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    The devil is a simply a tool for god. His current purpose is to lead people into heaven through fear and misunderstanding - so the bible leads me to interpret, anyways. I also agree with his post that the devil had the right idea - his methods were incorrect, of course, and his current state of affairs and ideals could use some reworking, but overthrowing god, yes, I would do it as well if I had the power. Not out of distaste for him mind you, but out of a desire for something better, the best even. God is a useless thing, currently, and apparently. We don't need him if he's going to stay as he is.

    Satan's been keeping the church alive for ages now. He's almost as pathetic as this god.
    Yeah right. People are even less likely to believe in Satan's existence than God's, best trick the devil ever played.

    The attitude of that you describe towards God is human, all to human, I'm afraid, you can not replace perfection with "something better" and Satan didnt want something better anyway, he simply wanted to usurp and replace with himself and also to exact wrath because he was jealous of humanity and felt rejected, the ultimate obsessive, jilted lover, now that's pathetic.

    I've got more than a suspiscion that you hold the view that God is a social construction or ideological construct and can be changed with the passing fashions, I very much doubt that, its also pretty majorly presumptious to talk that way, pretty much on a level with the original script played out by Satan in the story. Try changing yourself first.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah right. People are even less likely to believe in Satan's existence than God's
    Why is that? This doesn't make sense to me.

    The attitude of that you describe towards God is human, all to human, I'm afraid,
    I spy some Nietzsche.

    you can not replace perfection with "something better" and Satan didnt want something better anyway, he simply wanted to usurp and replace with himself and also to exact wrath because he was jealous of humanity and felt rejected, the ultimate obsessive, jilted lover, now that's pathetic.
    Wow, writting our own Bible are we? Nothing wrong with adding in some concepts, I suppose - removing some is the usual thing to do though.

    I've got more than a suspiscion that you hold the view that God is a social construction or ideological construct and can be changed with the passing fashions,
    I've decided, for now, that man has created god. Man is god because god is whatever man makes of him.

    I very much doubt that, its also pretty majorly presumptious to talk that way, pretty much on a level with the original script played out by Satan in the story. Try changing yourself first.
    Nonsense.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Or maybe you've just posted two posts unsurpassed in their misunderstanding of ideas of extremely good pedigree, you've surely got to realise that these ideas have endured for a reason and not simply because people wherent able to get the word out on Youtube before now.

    The Devil wasnt a good guy out to get people to think for themselves, he was usurper who thought he could fool people, it looks like he's done pretty well by all accounts. He hated humanity because he was vane and jealous of the attention God was giving it, so he decided he'd use his superior intellect to get them to fuck their shit up all by themselves. He's like the evil guy in Karate Kid 3 who has Daniel turn on everything he knows, hurting Daniel and everyone else around Daniel in the process.

    Although, hey, that's maybe not the message the cool kids are putting out on youtube, you know, maybe you should go with that.
    As I said...if I have my 2000 year old bullshit understood correctly. I don't. Not in the slightest, apparently. Oh well, carry on.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Or some similar religious system.

    I'm wondering if the whole idea of a sinners or saint's reward, sometimes mockingly dawbed "Pie in the Sky", where proven to be fundamentally erroneous what the social and particularly economic implicatios would really be.

    Not to be fatalist but I think that the dream of an earthly reward or paradise bought and paid for, a time of rest, is out of the reach of almost everyone. Even if its some what unconscious or agnostic the idea of an eventual or afterlife reward provides some consolation in that context.
    Sure, why not? Most of Europe is pretty damn secular at this point, with very low levels of religiosity (excluding Muslim immigrants), and has been for some time, yet capitalism soldiers on there. And as Fecal McAngry pointed out, capitalism is thriving in non-Christian Asia.

    I get what you're saying, and I do think religion, Christianity in particular, can serve as an obstacle to economic and social reform or revolution, for the reasons you stated and others as well (the emphasis on blind, irrational obedience to authority would be another reason), but simply removing the obstacle doesn't mean capitalism collapses.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Why is that? This doesn't make sense to me.



    I spy some Nietzsche.



    Wow, writting our own Bible are we? Nothing wrong with adding in some concepts, I suppose - removing some is the usual thing to do though.



    I've decided, for now, that man has created god. Man is god because god is whatever man makes of him.



    Nonsense.
    Yeah, that last word pretty much sums up your post.

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    As I said...if I have my 2000 year old bullshit understood correctly. I don't. Not in the slightest, apparently. Oh well, carry on.
    Yeah, keep trying, maybe your next post will make sense even.

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Sure, why not? Most of Europe is pretty damn secular at this point, with very low levels of religiosity (excluding Muslim immigrants), and has been for some time, yet capitalism soldiers on there. And as Fecal McAngry pointed out, capitalism is thriving in non-Christian Asia.

    I get what you're saying, and I do think religion, Christianity in particular, can serve as an obstacle to economic and social reform or revolution, for the reasons you stated and others as well (the emphasis on blind, irrational obedience to authority would be another reason), but simply removing the obstacle doesn't mean capitalism collapses.
    That's more like it.

    I dont think that irrational obedience has always been that prominant in religion, perhaps officially it has but if it ever where nothing would have got done, although I tend to think its the idea of an eventual hoped for righting of things which provides a consolation important to keeping things keeping on.

    I think perhaps this hope exists in a secular form too in reform or revolution and has been utilised by progressives or post-revolutionary regimes like China, instead of being "pie in the sky", its "pie in the future" (perhaps the conservative version is "pie in the past").

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's more like it.

    I dont think that irrational obedience has always been that prominant in religion, perhaps officially it has but if it ever where nothing would have got done,
    You read the Bible? The whole fucking book is about giving blind and irrational obedience to God, and to a lesser extent parents* and secular authorities.

    *The commanded punishment for a disobedient son, for example, is for the parents to have the village stone them to death.

    although I tend to think its the idea of an eventual hoped for righting of things which provides a consolation important to keeping things keeping on.
    Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.

    --Marx

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    You read the Bible? The whole fucking book is about giving blind and irrational obedience to God, and to a lesser extent parents* and secular authorities.

    *The commanded punishment for a disobedient son, for example, is for the parents to have the village stone them to death.
    Are you familiar with the distinction between and old and new testament?

    The bible is constructed out of an earlier hebrew scripture and the later gospels telling of the life and ministry of Jesus, thereafter the acts of his apostles and other key texts of the emerging Church of Jesus' followers.

    Your views seem pretty consonant with the old testament, although I would suggest they're pretty one sided even at that, you should read it I think. All of it.

    Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.

    --Marx
    Yeah, he was consistently following Feurbach (spelling) in that, although being more affirmedly athiest than Feurbach was only suggesting that Christianity was anthropmorphic.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Are you familiar with the distinction between and old and new testament?
    Yep the Old Testament is where God is a homicidal psychopath, the New Testament is where his Son comes down, who's actually an okay guy and has some good messages, except he says that if you don't believe in him and follow his teachings, his psycho dad is gonna be pissed and throw you into the lake of fire for eternal torment.

    In both cases, it boils down to obedience.

    The bible is constructed out of an earlier hebrew scripture and the later gospels telling of the life and ministry of Jesus, thereafter the acts of his apostles and other key texts of the emerging Church of Jesus' followers.
    Yeah, except almost all mainstream Christian doctrine regards the earlier Hebrew text as the inspired word of God, and the God of the Old Testament is the Father in the Trinity. So just because Jesus said some nice shit about loving others and forgiveness, doesn't change the fact that his dad was vindictive, narcissistic, homicidal, and genocidal. And that dad is worshiped by Christians along with his son.

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