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  1. #31
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    This is a very admirable and noble concept but how do you see it working in reality if the values are not the same as the population that took them in and in not accepting the values of the adopted country the value of a human life becomes nothing?

    I wonder if you would feel that way if it were your father, brother, husband or cousin who was murdered for a cigarette? What cost to the justice system in your own country to incarcerate people committing these crimes, to your own culture if no meaningful consequence is on the cards?
    Actually, in my country, capital punishment still exists, and murder over a cigarette seems like the perfect time to use it, and the incarceration rate is so high, one more criminal of this calibre would be no trouble.

    And so, the parents should be punished for the sexual abuse of their daughters.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #32
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity
    This is a very admirable and noble concept but how do you see it working in reality if the values are not the same as the population that took them in and in not accepting the values of the adopted country the value of a human life becomes nothing?

    I wonder if you would feel that way if it were your father, brother, husband or cousin who was murdered for a cigarette? What cost to the justice system in your own country to incarcerate people committing these crimes, to your own culture if no meaningful consequence is on the cards?
    The law should be about justice, not vengeance. If you are unhappy with the penalties for murder then the issue is with the legal system, there should not be two systems depending on culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I do not know if Australia has abolished capital punishment yet, but that's also an option
    Abolished in the 1960s.

    In regards to the "send back to where they came from debate" if they are a legal immigrant then there should be no differentiation from your average Australian. If they are an illegal immigrant, then they should be sent home.

  3. #33
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    This is a strange problem. As I see it there are two responsible approaches that can be taken:

    1) To come down on the practice with the full weight of the law, and make it absolutely clear that not only will the practice not be tolerated on Australian soil, but that any suggestion that children are being taken back to Africa to undergo it will be throughly investigated and prosecuted. This would take a lot of committment and resources to police effectively, at least in the initial stages. There is clearly quite a problem with this at present, but an assertive approach to dealing with it would probably convince most, if not all, of the immigrant population of the unacceptability of the practice in the longer term.

    2) The approach they're contemplating taking, which is understandable, and in its way compassionate, as they're trying to stop the kids undergoing further suffering. The problem is that begins to legitimise the practice in law and people's minds, and makes it still more difficult to eradicate in future. Short term gain may pave the way to further long-term pain.

    It's worth bearing in mind that female circumcision in whatever form is not even a religious requirement, but a cultural one specific to certain groups of people, particularly in Africa. Islam in practice tends to tolerate it, but it's not specifically an Islamic practice, more one that has become culturally ingrained among many people who also happen to practice Islam. Members of other faiths also practice it where it's the cultural norm, such as the Coptic Christians in Egypt, and many African animists (the Dogon of West Africa spring to mind as animists for whom female circumcision is an essential requirement, I'm sure there are others too). Those of us with different cultural values who find it absolutely abhorrent are under no obligation to accept the introduction of this practice among us if we don't want to, and I suspect that those who follow it would find themselves able to live well enough without it if push comes to shove.
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  4. #34
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly - and this practise needs to be relegated to the realm of sexual abuse.
    Along with male circumcision?

  5. #35
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Abolished in the 1960s.
    Wow, seriously? That long ago?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #36
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Along with male circumcision?
    As a Jew, I am not sure how to respond to this.

    Although, apparently, male and female circumcision are quite different in their effects. You need to keep in mind that the clitoris is like a gajillion times more sensitive than the penis. Some forms of female circumcision might be more liken to male castration in terms of what they do to sex drive and sensitivity.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #37
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    The law should be about justice, not vengeance. If you are unhappy with the penalties for murder then the issue is with the legal system, there should not be two systems depending on culture.
    I am certainly not unhappy that Capital Punishment is no longer on the table here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    In regards to the "send back to where they came from debate" if they are a legal immigrant then there should be no differentiation from your average Australian. If they are an illegal immigrant, then they should be sent home.
    I would normally agree with you but I know of several circumstances where people have been returned to their countries of origin after being released from prison.

    It seems though that it is OK to do this where the person comes from a relatively affluent country but not otherwise??

    Going back to the original problem tho, Ragashree makes two very good and thoughtful points.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  8. #38
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Well, actually it does. It has just about everything to do with the teachings of the Koran.

    I can find links and excerpts to support this, but I won't, as I don't care about this argument.
    Wrong. There is no reference to it in the Qur'an whatsoever. Far from being a requirement, female circumcision is not even mentioned.
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  9. #39
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Wow, seriously? That long ago?
    That's how outdated it is

    Actually that's when it was last used, it was banned state by state and officially removed everywhere by 1980.

  10. #40
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    As a Jew, I am not sure how to respond to this.

    Although, apparently, male and female circumcision are quite different in their effects. You need to keep in mind that the clitoris is like a gajillion times more sensitive than the penis. Some forms of female circumcision might be more liken to male castration in terms of what they do to sex drive and sensitivity.
    ...and some are even more extreme, either removing the labia completely or sewing it closed so there is only a very small space left for conjugal rights and peeing.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

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