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  1. #31
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    Just saw this topic and a simple explanation is more people have diarrhea of the mouth then diarrhea of the...
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #32
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The fact that the price of gasoline fell is not evidence that Standard Oil's market share benefited society. We don't know what the price of kerosene and gasoline would have been if Standard Oil's share was much smaller.
    They fell by about 90%, so it wouldn't have been any lower.


    No, dominance of an industry is not necessarily bad for consumers, but distribution of power (rather than concentration of power) is a libertarian ideal. Standard Oil was an immense concentration of power. If it wasn't for the fact that Rockefeller had such a strong moral foundation (especially compared to today's terms), the story of Standard Oil would probably be much worse.
    This argument resonates more, but it's a question of when and how to step in. Clearly, economic power would not be equal in a libertarian society, but it's not supposed to be.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is another case where I think you're projecting. You might not believe it's an absolute, but many libertarians DO believe it's an absolute, and it's not just the Murray Rothbard camp.
    No, you're really off on that one. No projecting at all. The VAST majority of libertarians believe that there are legitimate things for the government to do, the list is just very short. Please take my word for it. I've been involved in the movement for 15 years.


    I don't think I'll get you to understand why I believe the author's statement was not incorrect.
    Why not try?


    Think about how much economic productivity is lost due to the current health care system. It's immeasurable.
    The problem was tying health care to employment back in the day. Now that link is severed for many, and things are going haywire. The amount of money spent (both public and private) is outrageous when compared to the results we get.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #34
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No, you're really off on that one. No projecting at all. The VAST majority of libertarians believe that there are legitimate things for the government to do, the list is just very short. Please take my word for it. I've been involved in the movement for 15 years.
    I've noticed this with your perspective on other issues as well. Your perspective seems limited due to the fact that you've never lived in the midwest or the south.

    Why not try?
    Because my prediction is that you'll reject (rather than refute) every argument and I don't want to waste my time.

    The problem was tying health care to employment back in the day. Now that link is severed for many, and things are going haywire. The amount of money spent (both public and private) is outrageous when compared to the results we get.
    That's one of many problems, but it certainly started us down the road we've traveled, where health care decisions are not made by doctors or patients. They are made by insurance companies.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I've noticed this with your perspective on other issues as well. Your perspective seems limited due to the fact that you've never lived in the midwest or the south.
    Dude, I've met libertarians from all over North America (and some Europeans, as well). The definition doesn't change in Iowa as opposed to Philly or L.A. or D.C. Did you ever stop to think that your perspective might be limited because you were dealing with some yahoos? Look at the majority of libertarian writers and politicians in America today.


    Because my prediction is that you'll reject (rather than refute) every argument and I don't want to waste my time.
    Elucidate your argument and we'll see.


    That's one of many problems, but it certainly started us down the road we've traveled, where health care decisions are not made by doctors or patients. They are made by insurance companies.
    That wouldn't be as big of a problem if prices hadn't spiraled out of control to the point to where it's near-impossible to pay out of pocket, though.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #36
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    They fell by about 90%, so it wouldn't have been any lower.
    Come on, even you have to realize that this is a poor use of logic.

    Look, Standard Oil was innovative at the start. Rockefeller invested in his own rail cars to transport oil, which allowed him to keep costs lower than his competitors. But he also squashed attempts at innovation by others once Standard Oil grew large enough. Other entrepreneurs tried to create pipelines (making the railroad obsolete - they knew Standard Oil got favorable rates because of rebates) before Standard Oil adopted the practice, but Rockefeller used his power (bribing political officials to stop the purchases of land) to crush those attempts, keeping is competitive advantage intact. This is just one example of how Standard Oil held back innovation once they were the dominant force in the industry.

    This argument resonates more, but it's a question of when and how to step in. Clearly, economic power would not be equal in a libertarian society, but it's not supposed to be.
    It could certainly be closer to equal than it is today, and a big reason it's not is due to a (deliberate) misapplication of libertarian ideals.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Dude, I've met libertarians from all over North America (and some Europeans, as well). The definition doesn't change in Iowa as opposed to Philly or L.A. or D.C. Did you ever stop to think that your perspective might be limited because you were dealing with some yahoos? Look at the majority of libertarian writers and politicians in America today.
    Given that I've lived in every region of the country except the West Coast and I'm several years older, I think I have a better grasp.

    Writers and politicians are not representative of the groups they claim to represent.

    That wouldn't be as big of a problem if prices hadn't spiraled out of control to the point to where it's near-impossible to pay out of pocket, though.
    It was inevitable that prices were going to spiral out of control. Applying free market principles to a decision that people make under duress doesn't work.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Given that I've lived in every region of the country except the West Coast and I'm several years older, I think I have a better grasp.
    Why is that, exactly? I've been involved in libertarian politics for since the mid-1990s, alongside the full gamut of the people involved.


    Writers and politicians are not representative of the groups they claim to represent.
    I would say writers and politicians who are members of a small, fiercely-ideological part of the political landscape are probably pretty good representatives. Again, you are going to have to come up with an explanation how libertarian values vary so wildly from one part of the country to another, because they seem pretty damn straightforward to me. And I have dealt with A LOT of libertarians in my day. Rallies, fundraisers, conferences, Internet boards, meetups, conversations with think tank members my buddy worked with, you name it.


    It was inevitable that prices were going to spiral out of control. Applying free market principles to a decision that people make under duress doesn't work.
    I don't think that is the only or even main problem with paying for health care.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #39
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    Theoretically, Captislism is a great concept, but it operates off a faulty assumption, that resources are infinite.

    Practically, Capitalism is counter intuitive and destructive. It does not satisfy human nature(Whatever that may be) or society. The only thing capitalism benefits is the individual.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    Theoretically, Captislism is a great concept, but it operates off a faulty assumption, that resources are infinite.
    Ummmmm. . . I am pretty sure capitalism operates off the (correct) assumption of scarcity, i.e., people have unlimited desires, but limited resources.


    Practically, Capitalism is counter intuitive and destructive. It does not satisfy human nature(Whatever that may be) or society. The only thing capitalism benefits is the individual.
    1) What is so counterintuitive and destructive about capitalism?

    2) If it satisfies individuals (who make up society and who are the ones imbued with human nature), then what on Earth are you talking about?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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