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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    Why do you think this is so? The prominence of Anarchist,Socialist,Liberal NT's? perhaps because NT's are more anti-authoritarian, in nature?, Anyone else want to elaborate on this, perhaps reasons why??.
    In practice a lot of those ideologies wind up pretty authoritarian, whether you're talking grand scale or in small group, some anarchists are among the most pedantic and ranty assed people I know. If you need an example you could consider the responses to Michael Albert's attacks on anarchism (though why he even had to attack a minor movement is beyond me, its not a "rebel sell" style attack so he obviously has more things in common with them than not) or the article, cant quite remember what its titled but its something like "So you think you're anarchist?" which attacks all institutionalised authority, precluding all structures or structuration even. Now I dont think that because there's plenty of sorts of power or authority which arent institutional or organised and which would easily be worse, charismatic, economic etc.

  2. #72

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    I dont think there's any way that Plato could be defined as socialist or socialistic, he's an unambiguous absolute monarchist, his philosopher kings where supposed to be above material temptations or vices but that's a pretty different matter from socialism.

    He proposed no stage of abundance, no economic surplus, no prosperity as a productive rather than a distributive problem. In fact there's not much in his writings which corresponds to economy in the modern sense.

  3. #73
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    It's best to take into account that the Republic is meant to demonstrate the concept of justice, not act as an actual blueprint for society. The "good society" in Classical thinking is meant to act as a guide towards thinking about political issues, whether it can actually be implemented or not. The conceiving of a "good society" that can and actually has to be implemented in real life is more a modern obsession.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The conceiving of a "good society" that can and actually has to be implemented in real life is more a modern obsession.
    True that, its much closer to one of these threads than a political manifesto.

  5. #75
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Since when did MBTI type/function preference dictate one's political leanings or opinions of social welfare?
    Well, Fe is the function that emphasizes empathy and sympathy for others. So logically, an ideology that contravenes that (such as libertarianism) would be naturally unappealing to a higher Fe user.

    I was under the impression political leanings are dictated more by one's personal life experience not those magic four letters, that some people accord almost crystal ball status.
    Personal life experience isn't needed to form an opinion on politics. all that's necessary is knowledge of the issues and a logical grasp (either through data or intuition) of how you think they could be addressed. Those "magical four letters" simply refer to the way a person thinks, absorbs information and makes decisions, and thus could very well color a person's perspective on political matters.
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  6. #76
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Aleksei;1179104]
    Well, Fe is the function that emphasizes empathy and sympathy for others. So logically, an ideology that contravenes that (such as libertarianism) would be naturally unappealing to a higher Fe user.
    Not really, it depends who the individual in question feels the Fe towards.

    The son of a banker who is EXFJ and sees that his families livelihood depends on opening up new markets for them to invest, may well justify his material interest in Fe terms, i.e. duty to family and friends (in other words his class).

    The son of an immigrant worker living in poverty and who is XXTX will be pushed to explain his situation logically and may well turn to logical constructs from keynsianism to marxism.

    so I really don't think you thought this one through too much. It seems to rest on a quasi-Randian assumption that "markets=rationality" and "socialism=sentimentality". which I dispute profoundly, good sir.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

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  7. #77
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ... you described yourself as neo-conservative (still think its an oxymoron).
    To clear it up:

    In US parlance, modern liberals are pro-big government, pro-market intervention, basically. "Neocons" emerged in this case as word to describe people who were modern liberals, but then grew disillusioned with modern liberalism and jumped ship. Of course now one can be a neocon without ever having been a liberal (in the American sense of the word).

    Neoconservatism is basically about using US power to spread democracy and human rights. Neocons tend to favor liberal (in the international politics sense this time) IR theory.

    In another sense of the word, neoconservatism implies dissatisfaction with the dissolving respect for authority in society, and against the "culture of permissiveness."
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  8. #78
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    [QUOTE=tcda;1179126]
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post

    Not really, it depends who the individual in question feels the Fe towards.

    The son of a banker who is EXFJ and sees that his families livelihood depends on opening up new markets for them to invest, may well justify his material interest in Fe terms, i.e. duty to family and friends (in other words his class).
    My parents aren't wealthy (by American standards), and they are moderate Catholic Democrats who aren't particularly politically involved. My beliefs have little to do with my background. I think they DO have something to do with my personality, but I don't think that individuals have their beliefs determined by type.


    The son of an immigrant worker living in poverty and who is XXTX will be pushed to explain his situation logically and may well turn to logical constructs from keynsianism to marxism.
    Nowadays, immigrants tend to be less left-wing than many Americans. These are no longer the old days of the immigrant/first-generation radical worker.


    so I really don't think you thought this one through too much. It seems to rest on a quasi-Randian assumption that "markets=rationality" and "socialism=sentimentality". which I dispute profoundly, good sir.
    I don't agree with that in total, either. I am not an Objectivist, and I would never argue that humans are completely rational calculators. That isn't necessary to be pro-free market capitalism, anyway.
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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Well, Fe is the function that emphasizes empathy and sympathy for others. So logically, an ideology that contravenes that (such as libertarianism) would be naturally unappealing to a higher Fe user.
    But I have gobs of empathy and sympathy for others. Being a libertarian is a political belief. You seem as if you are conflating libertarians with Objectivists. Or Snidely Whiplash-type villains.


    Personal life experience isn't needed to form an opinion on politics. all that's necessary is knowledge of the issues and a logical grasp (either through data or intuition) of how you think they could be addressed. Those "magical four letters" simply refer to the way a person thinks, absorbs information and makes decisions, and thus could very well color a person's perspective on political matters.
    I am sure personality has something to do with it, but it would not be the sole factor. Possibly/probably not even the main factor.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Well, Fe Si is not very compatible with an ideology that calls for the removal of anything resembling a social safety net.
    Totally disagree with your logic. One could certainly argue that Fe Si is inconsistent with extremely unpopular points of view, however, and that as a consequence ESFJs are far less likely, relatively, to define themselves as libertarians than are...oh...INTJs, for example.

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