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  1. #61
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Aren't the two in open contradiction?
    Absolutely not. They're definitely related.

    What other interesting theory do you have, my dear Stalinist friend??
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No. You're a Romantic Reactionary, deeply embedded in the 19th century.
    Meh....same thing.

    Now, the good thing is that even if Romantic Reactionaries often are considered to be Paleofascists, as a matter of fact, historically they were rather opposed to true Totalitarian movements. Hence, you're not THAT evil...
    I believe the term is Protofascist.

  3. #63
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Absolutely not. They're definitely related.

    What other interesting theory do you have, my dear Stalinist friend??
    No interesting theories I'm afraid.

    Just the obvious observation that that social emancipation is only possible in industrialized societies, whereas greens (an overwhelmingly "first-world" phenomeon) either explicitly or by implication oppose the right of underdeveloped countries to industrialize to the point where they can provide for their populations (as you have done yourself on this forum, by blaming poverty on overpopulation instead of economic underdevelopment).
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #64
    Sniffles
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    You can also make the argument that being a consistent enviromentalist actually means one has to be a conservative of sorts.

  5. #65
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    Plato would probably be a Left Liberatarian or a possible socialist
    Plato would never be a libertarian of any sorts.

  6. #66
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You can also make the argument that being a consistent enviromentalist actually means one has to be a conservative of sorts.
    Yes. I believe environmentalism to be, at heart, profoundly conservative.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #67
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You can also make the argument that being a consistent enviromentalist actually means one has to be a conservative of sorts.
    Conservative, or conservator? I have always understood a political conservative as one who wishes to preserve and perpetuate the existing, traditional political system (political status quo); and an economic conservative as one who favors limited spending and avoids financial risk. Both perspectives can support a variety of positions on the environment, and do not lead automatically to environmental conservation. I am neither a political scientist nor an economist, however, and my definitions here may deviate from standard usage.

    As for myself, I did the political compass assessment and got:

    Economic Left/Right: -7.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.59

    Political terminology always seems rather imprecise, however, which is one reason I hesitate to label myself. I prefer the government to ensure as level a playing field as possible for people, and then to get out of their way and let them live their lives. This means ensuring that opportunities exist, but not forcing people to take advantage of them. Having in theory the right to do something is meaningless if the practical means are not accessible. The upshot is that I tend to support more regulation of business and state/local governments, and minimal regulation of the individual.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    To be honest if you're any sort of conservative you would probably fit better into the paeleoconservative way of thinking. Paleoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There's nothing neo-conservative - imperialistic, free marketeering, etc about anything I've seen you say. You seem more like an arch-traditionalist who is very concerned about issues of individual responsibility, civic duties, faith vs secularism in society and self-determination. Some people like to throw around buzzwords without really understanding what they mean... Anyway, read the link and see if it fits better.
    Well I've been a fan of Eric Fromm for a long time, who is an avowedly socialist thinker, on the other hand I think a lot of his thinking was taken up and ran with by Christopher Lasch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who is supposedly paleo-conservative and ultra right wing.

    The thing is I think some of the paleo-conservatives are great as cultural critics, social commentators and I think its great that while sticking to their particular guns, ie private firearms ownership, abortion, state executions, whatever wouldnt make them atypical lefties or liberals, they can share in the anti-consumerist and other criticisms of the status quo which have been traditionally left wing.

    Some of them impress me because their own ideosyncratic utopias of "home, hearth and family" or Jeffersonian independent yeoman farmers or whatever wont give people the good things in life, there is less of what I detect in other conservative writers to be a suggestion of "you can have your cake, and eat it". When they reject modern Keyesian (one way or another, welfare/warfare) economies they dont deny it can materially serve well.

    I think in terms of the debate itself that inspired this thread that it was more a case of "you're not one of us" or "you cant be left wing like me because you dont believe a), b), c)", politics is still tribalism and a lot of people dont like to mix it up, if you dont conform to their self-ascribed label then you got to be part of the despised or opposed "other".

  9. #69
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    With all the options that exist, my bet is that people just pride themselves on being "outside the system" and "independent thinkers", and some just aren't familiar enough to identify themselves.
    I like your posts Take Five, even if I'm wary because you described yourself as neo-conservative (still think its an oxymoron). I reckon that where political ignorance and the norms of the economy intersect, which is every most everyone is at who I meet, people buy into a myth of uniqueness, potential, novelty. No avenue can be left unexplored or unexperienced, nothing can be passed on, you cant settle because that, of necessity, means passing on something else.

    I think this is true of things besides politics too, sexual identity, family, community, constant commotion and eventual disatisfaction.

  10. #70
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Conservative, or conservator? I have always understood a political conservative as one who wishes to preserve and perpetuate the existing, traditional political system (political status quo); and an economic conservative as one who favors limited spending and avoids financial risk. Both perspectives can support a variety of positions on the environment, and do not lead automatically to environmental conservation. I am neither a political scientist nor an economist, however, and my definitions here may deviate from standard usage.
    Mere preservation of the status quo is not necessarily conservative, except in an instinctive sense. Conservativism as a political ideal largely wishes to preserve the "permenant things" which are incarnated within human communities for future generations. Although granted one has to take into effect the different variety of conservatives. Here's a basic guide to that:
    [youtube="ZG9GMjBY9b0"]Different forms of Conservatives[/youtube]

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